#128 

Human Trafficking Survivor from Canada in Open Letter to PM Trudeau: Shut Pornhub Down

Luba: Today I have Caroline Pugh-Roberts with me. Caroline is a sex trade survivor and abolitionist activist. She's originally from South Africa, but lives in Canada. Caroline, could you please tell us a little bit more about you? Like where do you live? What is your current occupation? What projects are you involved in these days?

Anything you feel like sharing with us.

Caroline: Thank you. And I'm very grateful for this invitation, as you said, I was born in South Africa, I've travelled extensively and lived in many countries. I'm a skydiving instructor. And I held a Canadian record for a few years and have a silver medal from the Canadian nationals in skydiving.

At one time I spoke five languages, but I haven't practiced. So I'm losing them. I fought the South African government during the era of apartheid and was held in detention for a period of time and left South Africa for that reason. I now live in Canada and unfortunately, I lost my mother, my husband, and my two best friends within a period of six months. And that is when I became vulnerable to human trafficking. 

I was trafficked for eight years in Canada. It took me two years to escape. I kept thinking that he was coming after me because he loved me. I now know it was because he loved $350,000. But when you're in it that deep, you don't realise that.

So when I got out, I went back to school, got my education and have been advocating and working on this issue for close to 15 to 20 years. Now, I currently work for salvation army. And run a very highly successful exit and recovery program called Cornerstone Dignity. In two years, 19 women have exited permanently, five were working full time and three are in school full time.

So I also have an anti-human trafficking Facebook page with 7,000 followers. And through the page, we have been able to pull people out of trafficking situations in South Africa, Puerto Rico, Alaska, across the United States. And it's been on a very effective platform. And that's how I think I met you.

Luba: Yes, of course. I'm just trying to make my time estimation. In 2014 came into force in your country, the sex purchase ban. Did the ban have your support them? 

Caroline: 100%, for me, it's ironic because prior to that, people didn't, well the men didn't care that it was illegal because they always were allowed to walk away. It was the women getting arrested.

 In 2014 when that law changed and they made it so that the woman wouldn't be arrested, but the men would, all of a sudden people had a problem with that law. So it's ironic for me, all of a sudden, the men were concerned about not being able to cross the border. What about my job? What about my wife? At no point prior to that did they think about the women. 

So 100% they had my backing. Before that there's something called the John school here, which is a court mandated diversion program for people caught communicating for the purpose first offense, which means attempting to pick up a prostituted person.

They have to pay for the privilege of attending this diversion program. It's a full day and it's a gift. We allow them this gift once and we have the crown come in and speak with these men about the ramifications of a second offense. The health unit comes in and shows them graphic photos of STIs because these men are refusing to wear protection and the traffickers are not allowing the women to enforce it.

The police come in, this is my favourite part. So the men all sit facing forward and the police officer walks in and he says to the first man. ‘So sir, why are you here today?’ and without fail, the first guy turns and looks sideways, left, right and goes, ‘well, you know, I was trying to pick up a hitchhiker.’

The police officer says, ‘sir, I'm the one that arrested you. So shall we try again?’ Why are you here today?’ by the time they get to the second guy, they're all telling the truth. I then get up and speak. And my goal is to humanise the women. I tell them things like, would you drop your mother and daughter, sister, or niece off in a dark alley at three in the morning and drive away without another thought to them and to a man they all get offended and angry at me and say ‘no’. And I look at them and I give a very pregnant pause and I say, well, why'd you do it to her? And I hear, and I heard all the time, well, I'm helping put food on the table. I'm helping her buy diapers. At which point I say, so you care about her and they go, yes, I care. And I go, well, why'd you make her do that?

Why didn't you just give her the stuff? Why did you make her earn it? If you care? I tell these men ‘step up it's time for you to step up and be counted. Stand up and stand up for us. You don't think since birth, we haven't been doing it. It's time. It's your turn now. And yes, you're going to get pushback from your peers, but it's nothing compared to what we've had to go through. So stand up and be counted. It's time.’

So we make them fill out a survey prior to the day, starting things like, do you think prostitution is violence against women? Do you think most women in it want to be in it? At the end of the day, we give them the same survey and there was a remarkable difference in their replies.

Now having said that, I'm not saying that there aren't some men that figure out what we would like to see. But in all the years, which is over a decade that I've been doing this school without fail, at least one man often with tears in their eyes will come up to me. Take me by the hand and say, I'm sorry. I didn't know. 

At which point I say, thank you. Now I get that. We don't know what we don't know. And I get that when we know better, we do better. But what I don't get is why you didn't know, we’re your mothers, we females are roughly 50% of this planet. We gave birth to 100% of it. Why didn't you know? At which point they're quiet again.

But they need to hear it and stand up and be counted. Stand tall. 

So yes, I was 100% behind that bill being passed. And in fact, I was consulted on it at the time. 

Luba:  I want to make some order in my head, in the listener’s heads. You live in Ontario. We know that Canada has 10 provinces and three territories.

A while ago I interviewed another activist, Valerie Tender. She's a survivor from Montreal. Valerie explained that the level of enforcement of the sex purchase ban varies between different region. So in your province, Ontario, you have this amazing John school model. I really love it. How does it differ from other territories?  

Caroline: Okay. So even here in Ontario, I think Ontario has the best level of enforcement, but it's still negligible. It's a drop in the bucket. Now I get that there are financial resources that need to go to certain things, and this is not high on their priorities.

And part of the reason I think that that's the case is because the patriarchal society. And I'm sorry, I'm going to say it often, the enforcers of these rules are purchasers. Police, lawyers, judges. I actually had two human trafficking police officers tell me that they know judges who refuse to take the human trafficking training. And I quote, because they said it might bias them. 

That's a travesty, it's a travesty, but the level of education, the profile of it has to be raised. Greatly. And we are currently working on this. Now we have a Canadian police college. I speak regularly at it now. I've spoken with the RCMP, the Canadian Royal Canadian Mounted Police and spoken on the psychology of a victim because I think that is part of it.

People think, well, why is she doing it? Why doesn't she leave? Do you know, it took me two years to get away. People say, why didn't you leave? I tried, where are they going to go? They have a criminal record. You can't even be a volunteer if you have a criminal record, how are you supposed to get a job? The societal stigma is still massive, so she can walk away but then what she's supposed to do? So because of stigma. So we need to address that to help the police choose and want to enforce this law. 

Luba: And this is in Ontario, what's going on in other regions?

Caroline: Well, I've heard that there are other regions where there are zero arrests. Okay. So this is another quote.

I had the human trafficking police go to see a victim, the one police officer (it's called Bill C 36) said to her, and what's with Bill C 36. This is the exploited person's act. The human trafficking law and human trafficking police officers said what's with that. So we still have enforcement offers with a huge patriarchal agenda. And that has to be eradicated for us to have hope or despite their agenda, they need to be forced to enforce, or they need to quit their job and work in a different area of law. 

Luba: And this happens in every region of Canada. I guess the proper enforcement will be a long process. It'll happen at one point in time.

Caroline, from our conversation, I see that your involvement in abolitionist activism is very intensive. You have amazing knowledge. I would like to ask you when you became an abolitionist, have you already exited the sex trade by that time? 

Caroline: So it's a good question.

And I'll tell you why, because most women do not self-identify, the word trafficking is not in our vocabulary. And usually we see it being the boyfriend. ‘My boyfriend wouldn't do that to me.’ So there's all of this stuff that we don't want to acknowledge. 

Now I got out, it took me two years and it was through going to college and education that I learned what happened to me and how, and then it was through great self-introspection. Why? Because throughout life, no matter we say, why me, why me? I know why me now it's so that I can do this work. 

Luba: It took you some time to realise what was actually happening to you right? 

Caroline: Yes. Which is not unusual because if you'd have asked me back then, I would've said I chose it. But when there is no other choice, it's never a choice, but we have to rationalise what we're doing to make it okay. Because it's so horrible. 

Luba: I know this is ubiquitous in sex trade survivors. I know it.

So when did you change your mind? What happened that you started introspectively realising what happened to you? And when did you become an abolitionist? 

Caroline: I met a woman who worked at the salvation army. She enabled me to use my voice. She gave value to my opinions. She liked gave value to my judgment and allowed me to use it instead of saying, well, you don't have education yet. What can you bring to the table? She saw a potential in me and gave me a platform and I volunteered actually for eight years at the salvation army. They literally and figuratively saved my life because I would run there sometimes to get away from him. And there were days when I would take 12 buses to go and do the volunteering to help the women.

Then I did my college and I got a job. They gave me a job and I say it like that because this is what I'm talking about. The societal stigma. Good luck to these women getting out when there isn't someone like I had, who believed in me and were willing to give me the chance and that's how I got started.

Do you know what? I got angry. And when I get angry I get motivated and I haven't stopped being motivated. So does that answer your question? 

Luba: This answers my question. Yes. Thank you for sharing this with me. I would like now to ask your opinion about certain issues surrounding the entire discussion about the sex trade.

Some people say, what will the destitute women do? What is your solution for women If you criminalise their clients? So, what is your abolitionists solution for them? 

Caroline: A brilliant question. I have an answer. My program it's called Cornerstone Dignity. It's built on three pillars.

The first one is to build transformational relationships and that means giving these women, and I'm working with some trafficked men, a relationship with someone who wants nothing from them only for them, which is rare in ‘the life’. 

The second one is to broaden horizons. We see the trafficking and the prostitution often intergenerationally. The issue of familial trafficking is just exploding. So these children and these women, I'm working with girls, who've been trafficked since preverbal. It's the only world they've ever known. So I will take them camping. I will take them to museums, bowling, teach them another language. We have Spanish classes, teaching them, sign language, showing them that there is more to the world and the world can and is great.

The third one is to help them transition back into mainstream society. And by that, I mean the survival skills prior ‘in the life’ do not transition well into the boardroom. And this can be things as simple as helping someone learn to say, please, and thank you because it was never role modelled at home. You can't go for a job interview if you don't have proper manners. 

I have both collaborations with an organisation here called Goodwill. They sell second hand clothing and they have a restaurant. They will give these women work experience on the retail floor or in the restaurant.

 I've built a second collaboration with another organization called Pathways. They will train these women for free in careers like custodial services or business administration. There are other options, but you don't just say to somebody, you can't do that anymore. You support them through this stuff. I'm talking years of commitment, years. 

What I'm doing now is I train the women to be peer support workers. And it's a fairly extensive course. They get a certificate at the end and they can get employed with that certificate. Now, ideally, this never should happen. Okay. They should have had better role models, better family lives, learnt what healthy relationships are and have had education, but I can't fix all of that.

I don't have the power to change the world like that, but what I can do is this, so I can give them a way out and I can support them for as long as it takes till they're on their feet. And I'm trying to build this model so that the women all over have these opportunities. 

Luba: Thank you, Caroline. I completely agree with you.

Can I try to challenge you with another argument against the sex trade? Let's play. So people also say that probably we should not criminalise clients. So the question is why can't we just target the brothel owners and other pimps? We all know that independent prostitution will never reach the monstrous dimensions of the current sex industry.

So what do you think, do we really need to criminalise clients?  

Caroline: That's an easy one. The fact that sex purchasing exists is the reason we have sex trafficking. If we don't end the demand, the need for supply just grows and grows and grows. And anybody who suggests to me that it is a viable career option for a woman. To me, it's preventing her from having a glorious life and putting her in a little box from the minute she's born. 

You know what, even if we just criminalised the pimps and whatever, it's the fact that men want or feel that they are entitled to sex is never going to change it. We have to stop it, nip it, stop it all. 

Luba: Okay. You gave me another good argument in this discussion. So thank you for that. Okay. You know, in the beginning of our interview, you mentioned the enforcement issue that the police are not entirely on our side. So the sex trade lobby often uses this Police problem. The lobby insists that under the sex purchase ban, we expose the vulnerable women to the violent police and the police might harass the so-called sex workers. So that does it happen in Canada? 

Caroline:  No. And in fact, I have proof that it's done the opposite. The police officers, whether the ones that are actually out there doing this particular work, in fact, they're getting more female officers involved actually, will call me and say, I have a woman. Can you help her?  I don't want to say sex worker. I want to say, if a person who sells sex is sexually assaulted, they can walk into the police station and say, this is what happened and how it happened without fear of being arrested.

They actually have the means now to protect themselves. They didn't before, because there used to be the thing, ‘you can't rape a sex worker, you can't rape a prostitute’. Yes, you can. You can be charged and will be charged for it now. So actually it's done the opposite and it's created an environment where men are a little bit more cautious.

That takes me to the next show because pornography has now made them do stuff, because if there are things on porn that is atrocious, just atrocious. But having said that the woman now has a vehicle to charge him for it if they choose to, where they didn't before.  

Luba: You mention pornography, I wanted to ask you about the online prostitution, not just pornography, but like, uh, these days’ web cam in prostitution becomes more and more ubiquitous.

So some people say that it is relatively safe since a woman cannot be beaten or murdered by camera. So what do think, should we oppose online prostitution too and why? 

Caroline: I don't agree with it and I'll tell you why, because most of the time she's not doing it independently, ostensibly on the surface, it may appear that way, but the boyfriend's there, the pimp, the trafficker, the husband, whoever set her up. 

I'm of the age to remember the very first sort of independent mainstream pornography film called Debbie Does Deep Throat with Linda Lovelace. We now know because she's come forward, this is in the seventies, her husband was standing off camera, pointing a gun at her.

So we now know that that's how it goes down. I'm working with these women. Okay. I'm getting mothers calling me daily, crying and sobbing because their children are on these porn sites. Even after she's dead, she cannot escape it. Men will still be masturbating to her rape and they are actually masturbating to an actual crime scene. No, it's not. Okay. And with the webcams, these guys can screenshot it. They can tape it. It's there forever. 

Now I speak regularly to universities. And I really like that one because the men, the boys in those classes are at the age where they have the financial means to start purchasing. And I say to them, let's just be straight up here, guys. How many of you would marry a woman who'd been a prostitute or a porn star? and there's not one single hand. And we're talking in 2021. I say to the girls, look around girls. They're the ones telling you it's liberating. It's cool. Go for it. They will never marry you, never, no matter what they say.

I was in a bar dancing one night, a strip bar and one of my friends was on stage and we've got a table that sits around the strip bar. It's called perverts row. She could hear two young guys saying, you know, this is the last thing I expected to see was Davies's mom naked on stage. 

This stuff, your kids will see it. Your kids' fathers are going to watch it. Your kids are going to go to the schoolyard and get destroyed by the other kids because your mom's a slut and yada yada, yada. There's nothing okay about it. 

And I find that the majority of women who talk about it being empowering are white university educated woman who have never, do not and will never, sell their bodies, advocating for somebody else's child to do it.

If you're going to advocate for something, you do it. Do not ask me to do something you wouldn't do or have never done. There's my stand on that. 

Luba: Absolutely clear. We are already speaking of online prostitution and pornography. I would like to talk with you about Pornhub. This year, thanks to the trafficking hub campaign by Exodus, people became aware of Pornhub’s wrongdoings. This mega portal has tens of thousands of illegal porn movies, including filmed child sexual abuse and snuff videos. Now the headquarters of Mindgig, the parent company of Pornhub are located in Montreal in Canada. That's why you have been speaking about it publicly for quite long. And recently you have sent a letter about it to the prime minister, Justin Trudeau. What have you written? 

Caroline: This is the letter I wrote:

 Dear sir, I am a survivor of eight years of human trafficking in Canada. I now work fulltime with traffic persons through the salvation army. I am writing because I now know that you are aware of the Pornhub issue.

(Please take note that I say that, I know he was aware because we have been telling him.) 

I have spoken to and educated over 20,000 people on the issue of pornography and human trafficking. There are things on the internet about me that will never go away. One of the big issues here is that even after these children and women are dead, men will still be watching them.

It never goes away. You may well be aware that NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement has a clause in it that exempts these platforms from liability, as long as they themselves do not upload the information. I have been screaming about this for years, and finally, people are starting to listen, dear, sir, this is happening on our watch and in our backyard.

It behoves us to address it. Any form of silence now is complicity. I have received the Queens Diamond Jubilee Medal and the Hope Award and the John Robinson award for my work in this area. I am registered as an expert and can be called upon to testify as such. I receive daily phone calls from women and children's parents often sobbing because their assaults and trafficking are on Pornhub. 

I can give you the statistics and testimonies from actual victims. The world is, and has been watching us on this issue for years. I am now asking with deep gratitude that I get the opportunity to speak to you on this matter. 

Now, having said, Exodus Cry. There's a whole large group of powerful female organisations that have been screaming about this. A male from the New York Times writes an expose and all of a sudden everybody's listening. We have been saying what he said for years and no one paid attention to us. I am grateful and I'm glad that they are doing this now, but dear God, this is why I tell these men stand up for us, but they shouldn't have to, we should have value enough that people would take what we say serious.

Luba: Caroline, just like anything else this is a process and I know that you were speaking about it for quite long and only now people are waking up but it happens. And you know what? I hope that the Prime Minister Trudeau will read this letter.  

Caroline: Well, I'm going to keep writing to him so he better if he wants to get rid of me. 

Luba: MasterCard and Visa stopped working with Pornhub. So I think that the end is close. 

Caroline: Having said that there are other porn sites that make Pornhub look like child's play. Okay. I have seen stuff. that you can't un-see. I have sent this stuff to the police. It's so bad.

We have to start Pornhub but this is just the beginning. 

Luba:  Just the beginning of course, we have many, many websites no different from Pornhub. This is just the beginning. And this is not the end. 

Caroline: We're in it for the long haul. And I tell this to people because they get despondent and dejected, but we have generations of women coming up behind us. We have to do this for them because as Andrea Dworkin said, if we don't do this, they're going to grow up thinking porn's normal and okay. We are the adults and it's happening on our watch. We need to look for these kids coming behind us. 

Luba: Do you have something that you would like to say, and I didn't ask?

Caroline: Yeah, sex is not a human right. It may be a human want, but food, water, air safety, freedom and I would like to add education are human rights. Sex is not a human right. And if you need variety use the other hand.

 Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

I heard that all the time. Variety is the spice of life.

Luba: Thank you so much.

Caroline: Oh my pleasure. Thank you.