Sally: So I'm really pleased to be joined today by Sall Grover, who people will know as the founder of Giggle. But, well, from my research, I found out there's an awful lot more to Sall than just Giggle, so I'm really happy to talk to her. It's Sally Jackson here, one of the volunteers at FiLiA.

 And I suppose Sall, it'd be a good place to start with just a little bit of history, because way before anything happened with Giggle, you were working over in Hollywood and as a screenwriter. Can you tell us a little bit about that life and what then brought you back to Australia? 

 Sall: Yeah, so I just wanted to be a writer ever since I can remember really. I always loved it, storytelling. And so I stayed in university for a really long time cause I didn't want to get a real job. I didn't want to get trapped in that. I knew where I wanted to end up and I had to work out how I was going to get there. And so, one credit shy finishing my Masters in Philosophy, I did my thesis, there’s one credit that I didn't do, but I got on a plane. I was just, I was ready. I was like emotionally and mentally ready. I wanted to be there.

 Got on a plane, went to Hollywood. I was 24, just about to turn 25, which in hindsight just sounds crazy, but you know, it's that, you know, the sort of naivety of youth where you just sort of go, “yep, I'm going to go and do this.” And I wasn't intimidated by it. I was like, just, you just, I've always had the mentality that, “you just have to do it, you have to be in it to win it,” kind of thing.

 So I got into the industry relatively quickly. It just took just over a year to sell my first screenplay, which all things considering wasn't too bad, and I had to sell a screenplay to get a visa to stay in the country, and then I could only make money by selling screenplays.

 So there was… now when I think about it, I gave up a lot of control of my own life to be a screenwriter, because my visa was controlled by my agents. And so if I, you know, while some people can just fire their agents and go and get new ones, I was bound to them for the duration of my visas. So once I got into the industry and actually, you know, selling screenplays and going to meetings, it took a few months, but then it just sort of turned and suddenly, it was… every meeting I was in, there would be innuendos, touching, just craziness. 

 And cause, I wrote romantic comedies, but they were always about very like empowered and liberated women who often had a journey to sort of extract themselves from a relationship. I wanted to sort of do romantic comedies for like the modern day and be like, “you don't have to end up with a guy at the end.” Like the happy ending can be that this character has worked out that she wants to, she's happy to, be on her own. But that was just an interesting story to tell.

 So most of them have that sort of theme. And I think one of the reasons why none of them got made, because a lot of execs turned to the last 10 pages and went, “there's no men on this!” And so I… yeah, then it sort of started to get worse.

 The first, like, worst, horrible experience I ever had, I was in a meeting and usually when you'd sit in the general meetings, you'd be in their office and there's always a couch and there's one on one side, like they're on one side and you're on the other. And this guy sat on the couch with me. It made me feel really uncomfortable. But you know, you just, you're in the professional mode, you’re like, “just keep going, that's fine.”

 And I would do the sell show, and you'd just sit there and justify why you are the right person to write this script, or pitch the script. And then you give all this sort of information about yourself to justify why it's your voice. It should be there.

 And so, because I was always just talking about these liberated women and then giving my own stories, I feel like that gave some men, sort of, a free pass that they thought, “oh, she'll be fine with this,” which was in no way what I was ever talking about. It was quite the opposite of what I was talking about. And so this one particular day as I was leaving, he, like, put his hand down my pants and went, like, “you look great in skinny jeans.”

 And it honestly, it was probably a second and a half interaction, but I was so blindsided by it. And then I told my manager at the time and he - this guy wanted a script from me - and my manager was just like, “well just go, go write him a great script, and just wow him with a great script.” And I said, “well, I never want to be in a room alone with him ever again.”

 So I didn't write the script. And so who looks unprofessional. And so stuff like that started happening more and more. 

 Sally: And this was, kind of, pre the whole #MeToo in Hollywood, wasn't it? So that wasn't in place at that time to… 

 Sall: This started happening in 2011, 2012, and then in 2017 I left Hollywood. I was a shell of a human being. I remember one morning, I was laying in bed and I was staring up at the ceiling and I was just like, “I can't get myself out of this hole if I stay here.” I couldn't write anymore. Because, and I've since found out through therapy, that my conscience or my brain was putting in a survival thing because writing meant going into those rooms.

 But I was so stressed because writing was how I had to make money. It's how I supported myself. So it was just a nightmare situation. So anyway, I ended up, I went to Europe for a little while, I actually ended up in Brussels for a few months, really randomly. I had a friend, one of my really good friends, he had an apartment there and he was like, “you can stay there if you'd like.”

 And because I was so depressed, being in Brussels, it was a country I'd never been to before, I didn't speak the language, but I didn't have to pretend I was okay all the time. I didn’t have to speak. So I just had this few months of just sort of relaxing, a bit, cause I didn't interact with any people.

 Then I went to New York. And that's when I started getting the idea for Giggle, because when I moved to New York, I had to find a room to rent. And you know, I'd go on all the different apps and websites that are there. And first of all, they cost money, which - I was poor, and I really resented the fact that you had to pay money for it.

 But like also, then there'd be these men who would say like, “oh, you can live here rent free if you just walk around naked,” or, “do you want a boyfriend as well?” And I was just, I was losing my mind, cause I was like, can there just be one thing that I do, without having sexual harassment?

 And in the end, I actually found this apartment, completely by chance, that had three other women living in it. I was actually the oldest. I think I was like; I was what, 32-33 at the time. So they were in their like early, early thirties or late twenties. We all had completely different lives, and we never really interacted outside of our apartment, but we were just in our apartment.

 We laughed every morning. We cried together. We had the dirtiest conversations, as girls do when there's a group of us together. It was just so much fun. It was just so soothing for my soul. It was something we all needed, but we'd always quite frequently talk about how much we needed that. So in the end, I actually ended up coming back home, cause there was more recovery I needed, and I needed some family time.

 And that was when mom and I were chatting, that she said, “well, let’s create a roommate app that's women only, so that women can find these amazing situations.” And then from there she said, “well what about this, they should also have an app for this.” And so we sort of just started creating all these different reasons why women need to connect in their everyday lives.

 So that's basically it in a nutshell.

 Sally: And it is. And here's where the controversy starts. You crazy, crazy woman, you decided that to enable that to happen, you would make it woman only. 

 Sall: Well, so at the very, very beginning, I did fight for trans women to be welcome. But as I've said a million times, what I was thinking about is, I think, what the majority of people think about when they're not plugged into what's actually happening.

 Because a lot of the stuff that's actually happening, if you're not on Twitter or Reddit, it’s happening very stealthily. Like the laws that are being changed in Australia, no one knows about them. That's sinister. So I was thinking of, you know, these adults who have gender dysphoria, who have transitioned as part of their treatment, and who are just living their lives very comfortably and nicely.

 And just, you know, I've met so many trans women like this, there's just no issue. It's just like you're living your life like that, I'm living my life like this. And if you don't make it an issue, there's no problem. So I fought for that. No one else at Giggle HQ was on my side, so I really, really put myself out there for that one.

  And then, so, we launched our first MVP app into the… last year. And then it was discovered by the trans rights activist corner of Reddit and Twitter, and just erupted with thousands of downloads. This orchestrated attempt to have it kicked off the App Store and Google Play, “transphobic,” “TERF,” all of these sorts of things.

 And there was a lot of, “go on, like, get educated,” sort of thing. So I was like, “okay, I'll go and get educated.” And it took about three minutes of educating myself to go, “oh my God, I had no idea this is what was happening.” I mean…

 And most of the downloads were coming from the UK and Canada. So looking into what was happening there, it became crystal clear. And the moment I saw the word ‘self-ID’, that just changed my perception instantly, because that's, I think, one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Any rational person you say it to thinks, “this is ridiculous.”

 So yeah, we changed the policy relatively quickly. And there were some trans women that did get on the app and they made ‘kill TERF’ profiles and ‘rape TERF’, you know, just the general stuff, which, you know, we have a ‘no hate speech’ policy, so regardless they're being removed.

 And so yeah, we sat there and we banned and blocked everybody, and cleaned it all up, and then went into the new phase of controversy of not allowing trans women. So yeah, honestly, I felt very hurt by it at the time because I was like, you know… well, that thing, I really tried. 

 And I don't regret it. I've thought so much about it. In hindsight, I do not regret it at all. I am very pleased that we had that journey of trying it, that we have all of the evidence of what actually happens, because no one can say, you know, “why don't you just give it a shot?” We did. 

 Sally: And actually that’s a really interesting way to look at it, isn't it? Because, you know, some of the arguments - I'm just thinking about, you know, some of the issues that we've talked about in the UK, where we say, you know, in these circumstances it's really important that we have a woman-only environment, and how we're sort of told how evil that is to exclude trans women from that.

  And you have a very concrete and real life example of what can happen when trans women come into what's been deemed as a woman-only space. 

 Sall: Completely. Because, and, like, there's a few points with this. One: it says quite clearly that it's a female space, so I think that the first issue is invading that, or ignoring that's my first issue with it now, these days, if they're going to try.

 My second thing is that women don't have to justify why we want a female-only space. We've earned the right and we've earned the right for them because of safety and trauma. We've earned the right for bad reasons. Now if we want to have a little bit of fun in them, I don't think that's a bad thing.

 I just, it's absurd to me that in the West we're having this battle, and in developing nations, they're trying to implement female-only spaces so that girls can go to school, and women can recover from rape as a weapon of war. 

 Sally: And walk to the toilet without getting raped.

 Sall: Exactly. It's been proven. All of society improves when there's female spaces. It's not just women's lives. Men's lives improve as well, when there are female spaces. And I'm actually incidentally, I'm also for some, for fun, like in recreation, have some male spaces, I think… to listen to it.

 Sally: And have trans-only spaces, you know?

 Sall: Hundred percent. I advocate for trans women only spaces, and trans men spaces all the time, because if safety is what the issue is here, let's get people safe. But that's not the issue I think. 

 Sally: No, that’s clearly, and you know from what you were saying, the motivation for some is around causing trouble, isn’t it. 

 Sall: I think the best way to, sort of, put it, is that for gender dysphoric adults slash what was once called transsexual people, who do live their lives very comfortably and nicely and know exactly who they are. They would appreciate - the ones I've spoken to – trans woman only spaces, cause it is about safety and feeling protected. The trans rights activism is not. Because if it was, we're all on the same page, there's no need to fight. 

 Sally: Yeah. And you know, one of the things that always strikes me is that as soon as you put this up to some scrutiny and you look at, “so what is the motivation behind it?” It becomes really clear. 

 Sall: As I said, it took me three minutes. 

 Sally: Yeah. 

 Sall: I don't even think it was that long. I think I was on the second article and I went, “oh my god.” It just never occurred to me to read that stuff, which - that's on me. I just didn't know it existed. I was very much, I suppose, in the mind frame of, like, the post-#MeToo, and the, you know, men being horrible when you're looking for a roommate or when you're doing freelance work or when you just want to escape from them, you've got a bad boss, all that sort of stuff.

 So I wasn't, I just wasn't thinking about it, because I just don't think, for most people, I don't think, you can't imagine that there is an actual movement to be able to self-ID as a woman. It sounds like a plot from a bad movie.

 Sally: Yeah. And yet we’re living that reality. And so, I mean, tell me a little bit, for any of our listeners perhaps that haven't gone on to Giggle, you know, they may have heard of the app, but they've not looked at it. What are, you know, what are the sort of things that women might use it for?

 Sall: Okay, so first of all, I'll start off by saying it's called Giggle for two reasons. One, because Giggle is the collective noun for a group of girls. And the collective noun for a group of women is ‘bevy’ - urgh - or gaggle. But gaggle is also the collective noun for a group of geese, and gay men. So it's not just ours. And I didn't want to call the app ‘Bevy’.

 And I also like, you know, just in casual and we're just like chatting, you know, it's like, “I’m going to see my girl friend, I'm going out with the girls, I'm having lunch with the girls.” Like you never say, “I'm having lunch with the women,” it'd be odd. So I just wanted to be like, you know, having lunch with the girls, having drinks with the girls, the app with the girls. So it was just to have that sort of casual, fun nature about it.

 I've always had a very strict rule that the word Giggle is never allowed to be used in any way that would suggest ‘smile more’ or anything like that. Cause I really hate that. But then the other reason is that our algorithm on the app creates micro groups of 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 users, and everyone has to consent to it, to be in it.

 And so, yeah, so you can go on the app to find a roommate. So obviously to rent a room out, to find a room to rent. If you are like, “you know what, I actually want to start a lease, but I need a roommate to do that with, to split the costs of it,” you can go on there specifically to find that. You can find house sitters. Then we have the Giggle Gigs freelance category, which is like, you know, IT, graphic design, massage, writing, all of this general - 

 Sally: So if, for argument's sake, if I needed some work done, but I wanted to choose to have a woman do that, you know, I don't know, a woman plumber, you know, a woman to help me set up a website, that sort of thing. 

 Sall: Yeah, a website. We also have, like, maintenance. So say if you were like, “I need an electrician, and I'd prefer it to be a woman.” Like, I've lived alone. And I used to make it that if the plumber came, or something, I just wouldn't be there. So I was like, you know, you just… live and learn. I don't want to be that story where its, “well, why did she let him in?” Because it's always our fault. 

 And so, yeah, so you can do anything. With Giggle Room, Giggle Gigs, and then we have another one, Giggle Travel. Which is where you can find short-term accommodation if you're traveling, or a travel buddy if you want someone to go on a holiday with, or if you want local advice off someone if you're traveling by yourself, you want to go to have a glass of wine with, anything like that.

  Any money that's exchanged is between the users, nothing to do with us. We don't take, we don't charge any fees. I've been a freelancer. I hated giving 20% of my hard-earned tiny meagre amounts of money to the website that just happened to introduce us. It was just, I just really disliked it. And so, no, we made it that, like, you keep what you earn. We didn't earn it for you.

 And same with finding a roommate. Like, I just think there's times for people to find a roommate and, like, every dollar counts when you are moving. And so to have to go and pay like $25 or something, to an app or a website, I don't think it's necessary. So fees are stupid. So we made it completely fee-free and, like, we have ads on Giggle and they're just non-invasive, they're there and they're cute.

 And then so we have, then we also have what we call our soul categories, and that's Giggle Support, Giggle Health, Giggle Activism, Mentoring and Networking, Social, have I said Hobbies and Exercise? Yeah. So I think there's 11 total. Yeah. So if you want someone to read a book with, you know, that you talk about it if you want. 

 I actually had a Giggle, at one point, it was an exercise one, cause I wanted to get back into running, and there was a girl in Chicago who also wanted to get back into running. So obviously we're not in the same place, but we would motivate each other. And so it was like, just being accountable to somebody. It's just like, cause she would say like, “okay, I did this amount today.” And I'm like, “okay, well I've got to go now.” 

 Sally: Now you have a target. 

 Sall: Yeah. Well now I've just got to do it, cause otherwise I'm the lazy one. And it did, it got me back into running. So just fun things like that!

 Our most populated category at the moment is in Giggle Activism. It's our feminism category where there's lots of amazing feminists there. In Giggle Social, we have a dating category that is strictly for females, so I'm hoping to get invited to lots of weddings in the future.

 Sally: “We met at Giggle.” 

 Sall: Yes, I know, it would be so much fun!

 And yeah, and so then we're just getting ready to launch - and as I was telling you before, just today I got the finished product and I've been playing with it all day - which is our social media feed, Giggle Talk, which is a place where girls can have a public voice and be heard and not censored, and not be in fear of the misogynistic abuse and censorship that is increasingly being found. Which, I mean, I experience it. I know what it's like. It's terrifying. I don't enjoy it. 

 Sally: It can be so difficult, and I think it's really important as women that we speak out, but at the same time, I really don't blame women who choose not to speak out because of the risks to themselves, to their mental health, often to their very jobs. 

 Sall: I was saying this to someone recently, because I'm actually quite a free speech absolutist, so, you know, someone has the right, in a sense, to tweet a rape threat at somebody. You're a shitty person, but you have the right to do it. Within reason. I mean, it's not, because it's, like, inciting violence, but you know what I mean. It's just like, okay.

 But what I have a problem with is that this is not reprimanded at all. And women have been incredibly vocal because, and I've explained this to a lot of my guy friends, you can get a rape threat from somebody, a nameless person on the other side of the world. There's no chance of them raping you, but having to read it, you're reminded of how easily it can happen, how it's always there as a threat no matter what you say or do.

 And it reminds you of the times you either have been or almost have been, and you're like, “I just tweeted that I liked a TV show.” It just - what? Why was this reaction? So I just think that, I mean, I think everybody deserves to have a safe and pleasant time interacting on the internet, but I think that for me, my focus is making sure that women do. 

 Sally: And it always strikes me as well, with, when women are vocal and perhaps then receive some of that abuse back, the different way in which some of the current social media platforms will react to…

 I can remember a woman who got banned for saying, you know, to a male, “perhaps you said that because you've got such a small dick,” and she was banned. And what he had said was, you know, a rape threat, which he was not banned for. And I just, I kind of, you know… 

 Sall: Women are punished if we fight back, that's the whole thing. We're not supposed to. We're supposed to accept the rape threats. And I just won't stand for it. I just, no.

 I mean, and that's one of my things cause I'm so unapologetic for it. Because I'm like, I lost my dream career. I had to give up my dream career because of it. I didn't, you know, I didn't want that kind of attention. I didn't invite it in any way, shape, or form. I tried to deal with it. I tried to make light of it. I tried to joke my way through it, all of the different defence mechanisms, until I got to the point where I was like, this is no way to live a life.

 And I was really angry about it, until we started actually properly developing Giggle where I realised, you know, I'd written these screenplays about empowering women, and I was like, “I'll just go and do something where I get to work with women and be empowered with them every day. That sounds like a much nicer life to me.”

 Sally: Absolutely. I think it's one of the things with Giggle as well that I was interested in, and as you said, there's kind of, like, there’s different types of categories. So there's the things like the gigs where you are looking for work, either you’re looking for work or you're looking to employ someone.

 And then there is the much more, if you like, the softer side, the, “how can I improve my exercise? How can I get involved in activism?” 

 Sall: Yeah. We call them our soul categories. Because just like… so for example, you know, we've got Giggle Health, and we have, say, a menopause category there. Because that's when you want to talk to other women. Because men don't understand that stuff.

 And yeah, and just, you know, in, say, Support we have, like, a ‘body image’ category. Cause, if you like, to get confidence or to help somebody through things. I've had a few Giggles where I'm like, “I've come out the other side of this, so I'm happy to give some advice or talk you through stuff.”

 Like in Giggle Support, there's an ‘emotional support’ category, which is just pretty general, but it's just like, “yeah, I've recovered from depression, I've got some great advice that's coming from my therapist that completely worked for me,” or if you just, like, when you're having a panic moment and you just want someone to distract you, send me a message.

 Sally: And to say, “you're doing okay, actually.”

 Sall: Just being there for each other. Supporting women. I mean, we use apps for so many different things. Why not use one to support women around the world? 

 Sally: And one of the categories is the mentoring and the network. And you won't be surprised, as an abolitionist charity, but we were kind of surprised to see ‘sex work’ was in there, and also obviously as a woman-only app. So tell me the thinking behind that and why you've included that. And it's not terminology that we would use, but… 

 Sall: So I'll just preface it by saying that before the launch of Giggle, I anticipated that in Giggle Support, we have an abortion category, because it's a very female-specific thing, and something that women need support through. I honestly thought that was going to be the most controversial category. No one's ever mentioned it, never once.

 So, the sex work category? Yes. Okay. So it is in our mentoring and networking category, which it got put in there because at one point we were calling it our business category and I was like, “no, it's not a business category, it's mentoring and networking.” Based around, yes, what you may do professionally, but it's not specifically business, it's just mentoring and networking.

 And so, the sex work category for me was purely, those women may need the support of other women more than any of us. Whether it's to be mentored out, whether they want help to get out of the industry, whether it's to give advice and support to be safe and healthy. I don't make any judgment on girls, women who are in that industry, I make judgment on the people who keep them in that industry.

 If I had my way, every girl would use the sex work category in Giggle to get out of the sex industry, and it can very much be used for that. It was a few months ago, it started, that on Twitter I got a lot of backlash from it, and it was very frustrating because nobody would listen to the facts of it.

 So I was like, “this is not a category that's in our Giggle Gigs. This is not a freelancing category where we are soliciting women for prostitution.” It would also be quite an odd place to come, for work in prostitution or the adult industry in general, when it is strictly female-only.

 I've explained to people that if there was, say, to be somebody, there was a profile in there that was suspicious or doing, inviting any sort of illegal or questionable behaviour: report it, so that we can action it, that we can work through what it is.

  I will say, the women… for a little while, I had a profile in there, because there were some women who were very much against it, who then went in and made fake profiles. And I was able to prove it because they made the profiles just before they tweeted the screenshots of them.

 So I was able to see what was happening, and they were making profiles saying, “I want to get into the sex industry, help me get into it.” Now, in terms of genuine users, that's never happened. It's actually full of women who were previously in the sex industry and want to connect with other women who have this sort of, they say, dark past.

 And I find that really interesting because, you know, in the emotional support or in Giggle Support categories, in the general ones, they don't post anything like that there, there's none of that sort of stuff. So having this sort of little space where I think they feel comfortable to connect with other women, to talk about that, and this need to talk about something that's sort of their old life, you know, they're now moms and they’re wives and have completely different careers.

 So I've seen it so far as only a positive thing, and I named it ‘sex work’ because I think that sometimes you talk to who you're addressing. And I didn't want to shame anyone, I suppose, when you're saying, “this is an inviting place and I'm not making a judgment on what you do.”

 Sally: And it is a really hard one, isn't it? Because I know… And it's interesting, you saying that, about some of the women that are involved in that group, because we have - one of the things that's developed over the years of having conferences, and we always platform women who have exited so that they're able to share the reality of what it's like living that life, and as a result of that, we've developed  a global group of survivors.

 So women from across the world that are able to do that, you know, talking to each other about what's helped, what's not helped and some of the activism that they're involved in and supporting each other. Because again, I think sometimes women can be absolutely, you know, 200% motivated in activism, but also recognising that they need to heal a bit first and look after themselves. Because it can, you know, use a lot of energy going out there as an activist.

 Sall: Hundred percent. And we’re so wired to put everyone else before ourselves in that context.

 I said to many women who have been, who have really sort of been very angry with me that it's there, I've said, like, “I'm happy to have a conversation with abolitionists and women in the sex industry, if we want to give it a new name or a new place on the app. But I'm not taking a place like that away from the app”.  If that makes sense.

 I want there to always be a place where women that are inside the adult industry can find a way to connect other women in a safe and private environment, and I'm very unapologetic about that. Because as I said, I think there might be some days where they need it more than anyone else.

 Sally: The space is important and it is, you know, language is so important. I'm reminded, one of the women that have spoken at FiLiA said to us that she doesn't use the term ‘sex work,’ she gets quite upset with that. And from her, very personally, she said it was never sex, so that connection that we call sex. You know, the work was never about that. 

 And it was never work. It was always something I was kind of forced to do, either initially, you know being groomed into it, or then because her pimp told her she had to or, you know, et cetera. So she said those two words just don't make sense to what was happening.

 Sall: I absolutely detest when I see, you know, there'll always be these social media hashtags of ‘sex work is work.’ I think that's disgusting. It's one of the most degrading things I've seen, sort of, I suppose, in this post-#MeToo world. I just, it baffles me.

 And cause as I've said, I'm not, I would  never shame a woman who is in the industry. I'm also not in a position where I'm going to judge if a woman's capable of making that choice or not. That's such a bigger discussion that is full of so many different opinions and different facts.

 I'm just very much like, yeah, I would agree. It's not a job or career. There's that line in Pretty Woman where she says, “it's not your childhood dream.” And I think that's a really true thing to remember that if you're going to sit there and say, ‘sex work is work,’ there's no little girl going, “when I grow up.” 

 Sally: No. So, I mean, I really appreciate you being open and talking about this. Cause I think, again, one of the difficulties sometimes of issues that come up via social media is, you have to try and talk about something really, really complex within very few characters. 

 Sall: There was one particular night last year where, yeah, the fake profiles were being created, and then I had some women come after me saying that I was a child sex trafficker. And I was just like… I didn't work the next day, I actually took the day off, because out of all of the different attacks that I've gotten, that one I like…

 I was sort of mentally prepared for the, you know, like the, “I'm a TERF” attacks, you know, that's water of a ducks back at this point. I didn't handle it well. I was, you know, I had one of those days, you know, when you're just teary. So I was really emotionally affected by it because it's, yeah, the worst, I think one of the worst crimes, if not the worst crime you could be accused of. And what I'm about is the complete opposite.

 It's just such a… like, I would talk to my cousin about it a lot cause she has like a little five-year-old daughter. And so I went and chatted with her cause I just said like, you know, it's one thing if it's true, or something, and you're like, “oh, okay, I'm doing something really bad here.” It's like, it was just such like a horrible lie.

 And to have that accusation sort of thrown at you, and there's just no room to have a discussion, someone just made up their mind that if you are going to just even use the word sex work, well then you are the equivalent of a child sex trafficker.

 And I think that I don't like that sort of behaviour. There's no, that’s the behaviour where there's no solutions to be found, no discussion to be had. And as I said, if there are women in the industry and women who are wanting to help get women out of industry and say, “okay, this is the phrase that you should have.” I'm happy to hear it. Just, no one's ever come to me with something else. 

 Sally: Well once this podcast is out, you never know, you might find that women feel able to contact you, which would be great. 

 Sall: Yeah, send us an email because I'm always open to like things like that, and that's an easy change. We can make that pretty simply, so, yeah. 

 Yeah. It's one of those things where like, we can work through this stuff. It's not the end of the world and it’s literally there. You can use the space to be there to mentor women out of the industry. If you are in the industry and you want to leave it, go in there. And it is female only, so there's not going to be people there who are going to take advantage of you. 

 Sally: Brilliant. Thank you. I'm aware we've got just a few minutes left and there's so much we could talk to you about, but I have to say one of my favorite hobbies is reading, and I understand that you’re a great reader as well. 

 Sall: I've been bad with it lately.

 Sally: You enjoy it?

 Sall: I do. It's my thing, like when I'm going to sleep. I either watch a documentary or I read. 

 Sally: So just share with us perhaps, because, you know, you've managed so much so far in your life with, you know, the courage to set off and go over to America to start your screenwriting career, and then when you came back to Australia again, an idea and the courage to set up and start and make Giggle happen.

 So, when you are reading, what are some of the books that, you know, either have helped you as in they've, you know, they've helped you, kind of, like, develop, but also the ones that are just kind of like downtime, “that was really good to read.” 

 Sall: I think my most, the book that's inspired me most that I've ever read, is Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I don’t know if you've ever read it. Oh my gosh. It's amazing. So she was born in Somalia, lived in Somalia and Kenya and I might forgetting, there was a third place, I can't remember.

 But she was raised in a Muslim family. She was you know, betrothed to this man, I think he was in his late twenties and she was in her late teens. She was just naturally very intelligent woman and she just wanted to read all the time. She wanted to be educated, couldn't get educated.

 So this man lived in Canada, I believe, and so her family was flying her to Canada to meet him, to get married. It’s not like she had a choice. It wasn't like, you know, “go meet him and see what he's like,” it was, “go meet who you're going to spend the rest of your life with.”

 And she escaped and she got refugee status in the Netherlands, and then taught herself both English and Dutch. Then got into university, then ended up doing her Masters degree in Political Science, I think, and then sort of advocating for women to be free from wearing the hijab and also about domestic violence in Muslim culture.

 She then got into Dutch parliament and then when the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh was murdered - she made a film with him, and he was murdered, because of it, by extremists, and her life was threatened - and so she had to move to America and lives under protection there now, and she writes a lot about free speech and women's rights and it’s the most amazing book. Like you read it going, “I wouldn't survive a page of this, if I had to experience it.” 

 So that's probably the best book. I recommend everyone read it, every woman should. It's just, she has a beautiful way with words and a fantastic perspective on what women's freedom and women's rights actually mean, because she's had none.

 And then the book I'm reading at the moment, actually, I'm going to forget the author's name (Eddie Jaku), but it's called The Happiest Man on Earth. And it's by a man who lives here in Australia, and he's 100 years old and the book came out last year. And he is a Holocaust survivor and he has written this book, as a 100-year-old man, about how to be happy and grateful. And it's just his life story, and it's harrowing for most of the book, but he is just beautiful. It's just such a beautiful story.

 And then I will say, I haven't read it in such a long time, but if I had to choose my favorite guilty pleasure book of all time, it's probably Bridget Jones' Diary. It probably is. I read Bridget Jones' Diary for the first time when I was in grade 9 or 10, and it just made me laugh so much, and it made me so excited to grow older. 

 Sally: Wow. 

 Sall: Yeah, I was like, “being desperate and dateless in your 30s sounds so much fun!” And now I am, and I'm like, “it is! It's really fun!” I would much prefer to be single and 36 than married and 36. I really like my life. Yeah, so that's probably it. As I said, I've been really bad with reading lately. I'm just looking over, actually, a pile of books.

 The other book that I have that I did make time for, obviously, is Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier. Probably one of the most important books of the last 10 years. 

 Sally: Really important read, yeah. 

Well it's been great chatting to you, and we look forward to chatting and catching up again at some point as well. Wish you all the best with the new social media platform as it comes out. 

 Sall: And actually, just a little to add, that with Giggle Talk, that one of the things that I'm - two of the things I'm really excited about actually, is I want to encourage women promoting themselves on it, whether that's their own businesses, their skills, whatever it is that they do. Actually not being ashamed to say, “this is what I'm really good at,” “this is what I do,” or, “this is the organisation that I run.”

 It is going to be a place where you are welcome to advertise yourself for free to all of the users on there. So say a, like, sort of, an organisation like yours, you can have this audience of women around the world and say, like, “watch this, read this.” And it's just another way for us all to connect and share information with each other because the best thing to do to be empowered and liberated is to be knowledgeable.

 Sally: Absolutely. And I think one of the things we've learned at FiLiA and continue to learn is just, you know, how much information women are generating across the world. I mean, the fantastic work that's going on in every single continent that women are involved in. 

 Sall: One of the things, this was a real moment I had. On Twitter, I've only been recently a tweeter, cause I had to sort of come out and correct the lies. But I used to just use it as reading news and following some funny people, cause I love a good Twitter joke.

 But there was this one particular guy who is a writer and I really loved how he would put things and I really, really enjoyed him. Anyway, I had never, ever interacted with him, ever before, had followed him for about two years. Anyway, he one day, just completely randomly, he didn't follow me either, I have no idea how he found me, called me a TERF, and then blocked me.

 And I was so, just, I was so angered, and I still am, I talk about this quite frequently, this story, because I was just like, “I have gotten news from you, I have respected your voice and your opinion on things, and now I've found out that you don't respect women, basically.

 And it's made me very wary of getting news from men. And I hate this cause I'm very much a ‘not all men’ person, but I'm like, “I don't particularly want to get my information from you, because I don't know if you just hate me for existing.”

 And so I want to be on Giggle Talk where I can just read females giving the information all the time and be like, well, at least, I may disagree with some of your opinions, but at least you don't hate me for my biological sex. 

 Sally: Yeah, it doesn't seem like a high bar does it? But for some reason it can be very hard to reach. 

 Sall: The lowest of the low! It’s absurd. I think JK Rowling was right. I think this is the most misogynistic time we've had in quite some time. It's really going backwards. But that's okay. We can, it’s got to go backwards to move forwards again, 

 Sally: Yeah. And I think, you know, I don't know, perhaps I'm too optimistic, but it seems to me that as, you know, things increase, actually, as word is getting out further and wider into society, people are kind of thinking, “what?” And maybe the tide is turning.

 Sall: I'm always a glass half full. I'm like, okay, the truth wins out. At the end of the day, it does. And you cannot get 6 or 7 billion people to believe ridiculous lies that are being told at the moment about objective reality that we can all see with our own eyes.

 That's one of the things some trolls and some, you know, just very ill-mannered people will sometimes say to me like, “well, who are you to judge who's female or not?” Who gets onto Giggle. And I’m like, “I'm not that powerful. I don't make that decision. Fortunately, I don't have to. You're either female or you're not.” It's pretty simple.

 Sally: It's just a fact. Yeah.

 Sall: Yeah. It's not who you are, it's what you are. And then go and build your personality from there. The world is your oyster. It's so lovely chatting with you. 

 Sally: Likewise, you take care, and as I say hopefully we'll catch up again soon. 

 Sall: We will. Yes. Thank you.