Gemma: Hi, Olivia. I'm Gemma from Yes Matters and from FiLiA, and today I got some information about an absolutely brilliant and very much needed campaign that you know all about, and I thought that some other women would really like to know all about it too. So, first of all, can I ask, who are you?

 Olivia: Yes, thank you.

 So I'm Olivia Smith. I am a lecturer in criminology, for whatever that means, at Loughborough University. And I've been researching, sort of, criminal justice or legal responses to violence against women, and particularly around sexual violence and abuse, for the last, gosh, 10 years now.

 And as part of that I've been arguing for some legal reforms that feel like they're never going to happen. And then something just seems to have clicked, and there seems to be a real chance in the sort of next 12 months that we could really try to make a really - it feels inadequate, but a particular difference. So I'd love to - I'm just really grateful to be able to tell people about it, thank you. 

 Gemma: Well, there's definitely been a lot about violence against women and girls in the legal world at the moment. So, the End Violence Against Women Coalition are taking the CPS to judicial review, on changing how they deal with rape cases, which they denied but now they've admitted, which is more perpetrator behaviour. So that's kind of worrying. 

 And so today, the press has brought out the Greater Manchester Police aren't dealing with crimes very well either, and haven't been registering a lot of things, in particular crimes against women such as stalking and harassment.

 And I suppose many feminists for a long time will have taken note that, you know, sexual objectification has sort of had the impact that crimes against women and girls haven't been taken seriously. They're all called ‘isolated incidents,’ and … not allowed to talk about that because it upsets them a lot.

 So it's really important that these things are joined up and that society takes women's voices more seriously, definitely. So, although I know all about it, our listeners won't; tell me about the brilliant stuff that you've been up to.

 Olivia: I don’t know where to start. You know when you're just like, “oh, what have I been doing?” Suddenly having a crisis of, yeah, knowledge.

 As part of my, sort of, latest bit of work, I've been evaluating a pilot scheme that was tested in, like, Newcastle, primarily, in Northumbria, that provided a sort of slightly different type of support to people who were reporting rape.

 And so whereas ISVAs, and Rape Crisis and all those great organisations… emotional support, some practical support, give information about the justice system, and really help people, sort of, make it through the justice system, actually there isn't a lot of support for people who are going through this, actually inside the system, or from the, sort of, legal profession themselves, partly because it's often part of the problem rather than really being a solution.

 But what I found in this evaluation was that actually providing some form of legal support for survivors of rape was really powerful at helping them feel like they weren't alone within the justice system, because there was somebody who could take on the sort of, admin, of writing emails to the police, of challenging the police, and saying, “but why is this certain evidence relevant?” Or, “why are you asking those questions at the interview?”

 Which the current system of support that we have in the rest of England and Wales, can't do because they can't sit in on the ABA interview. They can't see the evidence. Whereas because these were qualified lawyers, they were allowed to see the evidence. They were allowed to have confidential conversations with the survivors.

 So the survivors could say, “I'm worried about my phone. It's got this stuff on it.” And that wasn't something that then had to be told, or the police couldn't find out about that, cause it was confidential, privileged information.

 So what we found was that having this legal support by qualified lawyers allowed survivors to challenge the requests for their data, for their phones, GP records, school records. It was really successful at making the police and the CPS a bit more scared about asking for that kind of data, because there was somebody going, “but why? That's not the rule. Like, what do you.. why would you do that?”

 And so it had this kind of really remarkable shift in their kind of organisational cultures that I can't think of any other policy that's ever had. And it really did make… I mean, it's limited, it's the law still, but it did make the investigations a lot more sort of limited, and a lot more narrow in what they were asking of women and a lot more relevant because of that.

 There were problems, obviously. And it is always going to be, to an extent, it's always going to be a sort of plaster over a gaping wound. So I am really aware of that. But I think for those women who do want to go forward to the police, they should know that they will be treated with dignity.

 And having someone there who can challenge it when they're not treated with dignity, who is an insider to the legal system, seems to be really effective at improving their experiences. That was a very long , very wind-y…

 Gemma: Well, that sounds great, because obviously women in that situation, I mean, they've had their consent ignored, so they're not going to feel empowered, they're not going to feel confident, and legal stuff is complicated.

 There's a reason, you know, why there's, you know, lawyers and stuff around. And it will make, you know, law more accessible, perhaps. Maybe that's sort of something that it does. So I think it's a good step in the right direction. And accountability is important, isn't it?

 So if, you know… the police force, they're people, so they're a reflection of our society. And so there will be police officers who are great at this stuff and there will be police officers that really aren't. So it’s like extra protection for victims who have largely lost faith in the justice system. Perhaps this will help a little bit. 

 Olivia: Exactly. And so I, as part of my work, I spoke to some survivors. I spoke to them in interviews, but also we surveyed almost 600 survivors, most of whom didn't report. And we're kind of going to do some more stuff with that really important data, later on.

 But for those who did report, it was really clear that they felt really treated badly by the system. They said the police were kind to them most of the time. They were polite, most of the time, but that that didn't change the fact that actually this was a really brutal system that massively affected their recovery, their sort of long-term health, because it compounded the difficult sort of impact that it has on someone's wellbeing.

 I think what you said was really important, that this is a group of people who have been ignored and their consent has been ignored and overruled by somebody else. And then the police come along and some of the police officers, before the lawyers were getting involved in this area were saying, “oh, but we don't need to ask the victim for their consent to get their medical records.”

 Yeah, you do actually. So they didn't understand that consent was even a thing that there should be on their radar, when investigating a crime that is all about someone's consent being taken away from them. And so it just, the lawyers were then able to go in and be like, “no.”

 And “even when you think you're getting consent, you are not.” And explain those really basic things that should be obvious to people who are specialising in investigation of consent, and yet didn't seem to be.

 The other thing I think is really important to realise is that so many people don't understand, the victim doesn't have a lawyer already. So many people, like when I've been speaking to people about this work, people are like, “but doesn't the victim already have a lawyer? Isn't the victim's lawyer very good?”

 And it's like the victim is a witness that is used by the state to get some… you know, to their own end. The victim does not have somebody who is there just to support them, other than outside of the system. So we have, you know, very under resourced, very underfunded services that are able to help and support survivors outside of the legal system.

 But once they're inside that legal system, all we do is say, “okay, we'll have someone who can hold your hand in the waiting area. But once you are in there, you're just a witness.” And that's not good enough, that's completely ignoring the reality of sexual violence. That is, you can never just be a witness in a case. Like, it's more important than that. 

 Gemma: Yeah. And, you know, you're supposed to prove beyond reasonable doubt. It's not really fair if one side has a lawyer and the other side doesn't, essentially. It sounds so important, it really does, in lots of different ways.

 About fairness, about helping with the rehabilitation, and, you know, access to justice, generally speaking, just access to justice and not being able to understand these things. And, you know, these women may have, you know, had, like, grooming and other things and may be full of self-doubt from gaslighting and all sorts anyway. 

 And the police and the CPS have been found to be problematic. I mean, the most likely profession for a domestic abuse perpetrator has been found to be the police. So it's a minefield, really.

 So if there's someone there that could not only, you know, professionally rely upon them, but are also specialist in this particular area, who knows their rights, whether they may not do. That sounds like something really important. Definitely.

 Is there any way that we as individual women can support this, or raise awareness of it to get it rolled out more, is there anything that we can do? 

 Olivia: Yes, please. So we've set up, me and the research team have set up a website called, it’s, “needisclear.org” And CLEAR was meant to be something sort of clever about Complainant's Lawyers for Evidence And Rights as an acronym, but time went away.

 Anyway, go to needisclear.org, and that has a whole load of action that you can take. So it's got some template letters that you can send to your MP, as well as to Robert Buckland, the Justice Secretary. And also it's got a petition, a link to a petition on change.org, where we are calling for the Justice Secretary to introduce legal support for survivors of sexual offenses.

 And it's really important because there is so much backlash. Again, it feels so obvious to us, that of course we should be supporting women, particularly women… this was shown to be really, really helpful for women with, particular sort of, especially really chronic mental health conditions or learning disabilities where… was more difficult.

 And actually it's really helped to ensure that they had the support that they needed. So it seems really obvious to us that this is a good thing, and yet actually this is one of those areas where the law is very, very tentative and very conservative about it. And really we need… I don’t know how much, I don’t know how much to say, er...

 Gemma: Well the law is generally, it's a boys club, isn't it? The majority of laws were made before we even had the vote. And even in everyday conversation, you can be talking about any bloke and a man will defend that bloke. He may not even know him, but they feel so defensive about it.

 And there is sort of that element to that, I think, there will be that bias within the police and the CPS, in the law generally, because it is a male-run institution.

 And I think, so another reason why it's really important is because rape is a serial offense. It never happens just once. And it's also an escalating offense. So when someone, a woman, is failed when reporting rape, it isn't just failing that one woman, it's failing that woman and the future multiple other women.

 And as you'll know, rape conviction rates are currently at a historical low, and it's really important that anything to help this, be it through lawyers, be it through police, be it through CPS, any way that we can tackle this to say, “do you know what, society, you know, we do matter, our voices matter, our lives matter,” is really important.

 And I think that this work sounds really important and it sounds like it will help victims, which is absolutely amazing. That's brilliant. So I want to say from the sisterhood perspective, and as a survivor myself who works with survivors, to just say thank you very much for the dedicating and the work, to try and change the world.

 Because the reality is that each piece of work that we do, you know, you may never meet these women, but it will make a difference to their lives. So, “thank you,” is something that is very important to say.

 And the second thing is a very important question that I always ask everyone I do a podcast with, and that is, what is your favourite cake?

 Olivia: Oh, I love cake so much. There's pretty much no bad cake. I'm very particular, though, about chocolate cake. So chocolate cake can be the best one ever, but only if it's not too dense, so I only like homemade chocolate cake. Or any other, basically, any other cake. I love it.

 Gemma: I couldn't bake to save my life, so all of my cake is shop-bought. So I can't relate on that. However, yes, chocolate cake is… that's an excellent answer. All the brownie points, pun intended. 

 Olivia: It's a classic for a reason, it’s so good. 

 Gemma: Well, we'll put all the information with the podcast. So everyone definitely go and check out that website, send those emails to MPs and victim commissioners and all the people on Twitter that you think might influence it.

 And let's try and get the word out there, because if women know about this resource, then they've got a foot soldier in the battle with them, haven't they? And we all need that. So thank you so much for talking to us today, Olivia. Really appreciate that. 

 Olivia: Thank you. 

 Gemma: Take care. 

 Olivia: Have a nice day!

 Gemma: You too.