#114-yes-matters-research-for-the-16-days-of-activism-project

Sally: I'm really pleased to be joined by another one of our FiLiA volunteers, Gemma Aitchison this morning, who I've described here in my notes as all round Superwoman and activist, which I think sums it up quite nicely. But Gemma, would you like to introduce yourself and say a little bit about the work that you do including the work outside of FiLiA.

Gemma: So, I'm an angry woman like many of us, so I just try and do my bit. I founded Yes Matters UK, which tries to shine a light on victim rehabilitation because that's often forgotten. And advocacy stuff ‒ I successfully campaigned for compulsory sex education and help to shape the consent and gender stereotypes part of that. I helped to write the CSE [child sexual exploitation] prevention policy. I've done research on how sexual objectification impacts the access to justice for women and girls for the European Parliament. And other than that, I just get about a bit and just try and cause trouble and try and improve things for women and girls.

Sally: A lot of that is around raising awareness. And one of the reasons that we are chatting today is that we're soon to be in what we call the 16 Days of Activism. And just to give a bit of background to that, it starts on the 25th of November, which is the UN International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and I think importantly, the only day throughout the whole year that is dedicated to ending male violence against women and runs until the 10th of December, which is International Human Rights Day. And this year, the theme around that is about how rights are the beginning of peace within society and the way to create a fairer society. And we're acutely aware of across the world how women are still campaigning to get rights or keep rights or stop rights from being taken away from them throughout the world as we go on.

And it's also a reminder of a horrific event that happened back in 1989 in Montreal, when a young man armed with a rifle and a hunting knife burst into a college classroom at the École Polytechnique in Montreal, and the 60 or so engineering students that were there had next to no time to react before the men were ordered to leave the room and the gunman then started shooting the women. Six female students were killed instantly and three more were left injured. The killer who had earlier told a shopkeeper he was going after small game, had previously been denied admission to the École Polytechnique and had been very upset by that. It later transpired that he was upset about women working in positions that were traditionally occupied by men. And before he opened fire he shouted, ‘You’re all a bunch of feminists and I hate feminists.’ And that in itself is a really clear example of objectification. He was not seeing those young women as women and human beings in their own right. He minimised their existence to give himself a pathetic excuse to, to kill and to hurt them.

And that draws us on quite nicely to some of the research that you've been doing ready to be launched around the 16 Days. So can you tell us a little bit about that research, how you decided on the subject and how you went about collecting the data? 

Gemma: So I researched for this year's 16 Days ‒ obviously this year we've had to do it online because of Covid. Normally we would do a Reclaim the Streets. This year we decided to do some research and I picked sexual objectification because it's in every news story where a woman or a girl has been harmed. Whether it's domestic abuse or it's rape or a terror attack like you've just mentioned, in every single one, there are two key ingredients and that's sexual objectification and it's entitlement of a man. So I think that sexual objectification needs to be discussed more. 

There's a famous quote by an uncited police officer that says, ‘Objectification is the first step in any violent crime,’ because it's the first step of justifying what you're doing to the person that you're doing it to. And of course, we see objectification in lots of different ways. We see it in every oppression. The way different races were treated in slavery ‒ they were objectified first. In the class system ‒ it's a demonisation of the poor. We see it in all oppression as well, but with women and girls, unfortunately, it seems to be specifically sexual objectification. So we're there to serve the needs of the subject, specifically the sexual gratification of men.

Sally: In some ways, I think sometimes it's hard to see and recognise exactly where sexual object objectification occurs because, sadly, it's become almost part of the wallpaper of women's lives. It's so frequent that we kind of stop noticing it. You've defined really well what objectification is. Can you tell us a little bit about how you would define sexual objectification? What's different about that?

Gemma: So, I would call it one of the gender stereotypes. A gender stereotype of women and girls is sexual objectification, and that is from the year dot ‒ even before we're born, really with whole pink and blue stuff ‒ the idea is that you are a pretty little girl and a big strong boy. And so it's all about being pretty and how beautiful you are, and things like, you're supposed to be caring. If the boy pulls your hair or whatever, it's because he likes you. And so the goal is always to have your validation by how men see you.

So for an example, in any newspaper that you have or any news story that you have, the stories about the women will be how they look and the stories about men will be about what they are doing or what they think. We had Theresa May as a prime minister, which you know, I wasn't a huge fan, but the amount of headlines that were about her kitten heels while what she was wearing, never happened with Boris or Trump or any of the male leaders. And we have this society which… the beauty industry and the diet industry are built on our backs, and it's all about how we look. Even when we have a baby, it's how to get rid of that mummy tummy. It's the constant thing of what matters about you is how you look and what matters about you is being sexy for men. And if you're not that, then you're not worth anything. 

And we see it in the old suffragette posters ‒ they were all seen as ugly and unmarried and couldn't have children, because obviously that's what we're here on this earth for, to be pretty and married and have children. And if we're not, oh well, it's the ultimate insult, you know. And I think it was Caroline Heldman that said it, I'm not sure, but the thing that men are worried about online dating is that the girl is going to be fat, whereas the girls are worried that [the man] is going to kill and rape them. And I think that essentially sums up in society exactly the place where women are put.

Sally: And it's, it's just, as you say, it's relentless. It's from, from so many different angles. And with all of these representations that we see of women in the survey, did women talk about how that made them feel? For instance, how they were represented on social media, what was the impact of that for them?

Gemma: So we asked… it was just over 650 women that replied and they were based in Greater Manchester. We asked them various questions. One of the questions was: How does the representation of women, how does it make you feel? And a few of the responses we got were about: it's all about validation, for appearance; it's all filters and expectations; that there was so much pressure; a meat factory for male consumption, which I thought was particularly poignant; and it's like they have to build themselves as a brand. And that's something that shook me because with social media and most things are documented. And of course most teenagers think every thought that they have is amazing and everyone must know, which as we know is annoying, but for teenagers in particular, when they go through the cognitive development during in puberty, the part of the brain, which measures risk is not developed yet. So they might put things on and be more easily led and things like that because they haven't been through that. 

Sally: It was really sad to see in some of the responses, how many of the women just saw the objectification as inevitable ‒ it was just part of life, part of what was going to happen. How did they feel that role models that women had either enhanced or countered that objectification. 

Gemma: Well, there were two things that sort of struck me about that. The first was that it was the only question in the research that got a hundred percent answer, which was: Are you concerned about the girls in your life experiencing sexual objectification? And a hundred percent of them said yes. The first thing that struck me was that that will now become normalised. That's what happens. So we see it with pornography and strip clubs. Whereas at first it was, have a brown bag to hide your shame sort of thing. And now, there's a problem with you if you don't accept that your boyfriend watches porn and goes to strip clubs.

And the same with the violence in pornography. If you don't accept that as part of your sex life, you are now vanilla or you are a prude. So it worries me that we're getting to that point of normalisation where it was another thing women just have to accept. And the second thing really was that most role models… first of all, to be role models they have to be known, and to be known, the media has to cooperate. And in the UK 80% of our media is owned by four white straight men. So, to even become a role model, you have to fit in the box of what women should be. 

So if you think about singers. They're there to sing because they have a talent for singing. Ed Sheeran will walk on stage in jeans, a bit of a mucky t-shirt, and he hasn't brushed his air for a week, and that's fine because he's there to sing. I don't think Beyonce or Ariana Grande or Little Mix could do anything like that. And it's again, that normalisation, it's now apparently become empowering to fit the sexual objectification box.

Even with Covid, there was quite a bizarre thing where a lot of the beauty salons weren't able to open because of Covid. You know, some people framed it as you're taking women's empowerment away. Well, no. No, I don't think that is actually what's happened. I think we we're just not paying people to look how men think we should look. Because we're human beings and, you know, we have hairy legs and stuff. Get over it!

Sally: It was interesting as well… we are just heading into second lockdown now, but thinking about the first lockdown… equally, we did see lots of women sharing, almost like they were being naughty, how freeing it was and how wonderful it was. Because they hadn't been out so they'd not bothered to dye their hair or they're not bothered to shave their legs, or they hadn't put makeup on for a week and they'd spent the day in their pyjamas. They'd not bothered to get dressed up and had really kind of revelled in that as something unusual. And what they were saying was, I got up today and I was myself, but that was something really strange and new for them rather than the day to day putting on who they felt that the world should see and how they should appear.

Gemma: Our world expects women to follow those norms at all levels. I could go to a meeting or a panel about violence against women or representation of young people. If I just have a shower, brush my hair, put on my smart clothes and go like a bloke would, I would be seen as unkempt and looking unprofessional if I didn't have the hair and makeup and stuff done.

And I guess there's also the rhetoric around feminism, so those women that don't fit that mould, again from suffragette time to now… It's the role models that don't concentrate on stuff like that, they're just seen as man-hating, lesbian eats babies, you know, all the stuff that we apparently do. The feminist rhetoric, it's still that. I mean, it hasn't changed in hundreds of years, but it's the same thing. It's the same suffragettes wanting the votes cause they're ugly. 

Sally: That representation of women, as you say, is so ingrained in society. You mentioned earlier, porn. But taking that one step further, thinking about… from the women in the survey that you spoke to how they saw themselves represented in porn. So, what does porn tell society that a woman needs to do, needs to be? 

Gemma: It reinforces the gender stereotypes again. So for the men, it's the entitlement, it's the aggression, the dominance, the in-control. And for the woman, it's the submissive, the sexual object, always available. The worrying thing that I see at the moment, currently in the UK we have a historical low of conviction rates. And Yes Matters is part of the Violence Against Women Coalition, which is currently working towards changing that. 

The thing that rape convictions rely on is not only that the woman didn't give consent, but that the man knew that she didn't consent. And the thing is, if you have young boys ‒ the average age of pornography in the UK, exposure to it, is 11 years old. So if you have a boy watching pornography. And in that pornography, he's just grabbing her. He is hitting her. He is spitting on her. He is strangling her. He is pulling her hair. She's crying and they put Vick's Vaporub under the eyes, so the mascara runs more. If a boy does that to a girl, so the girl is saying to the officer, ‘I was crying, he was hitting me.’ Thirty years ago, that would've been taken a different way to the way it does now. Because the boy can just say, ‘Well, that's what they do on PornHub, so what's the problem?’ He might not even register that there is a problem.

And that's the problem with pornography ‒ child grooming. Which is what, essentially, I think it is doing 

Sally: Well, when you are talking about accessing hardcore pornography at 11, you are having young boys and men being informed about sex and sexual performance before some of them have even reached puberty, let alone be ready for a relationship and be thinking about what they might actually want from a relationship. Or not even a relationship, just from sex that was fun with someone that they fancied. They've got this whole perverted idea of what they're supposed to do and what's expected of them. And, and as you say, likewise young women. So, knowing that the sort of sex that's going to be expected from them. It's just so sad that young people aren't being able to start puberty and start relationships and start experimenting sexually in a way that is just consensual and fun and that both of them enjoy. 

And I think one of the things that strikes me is how it's become really one-sided. So it's something that a man does to a woman, not that something that two people do together to enjoy. And I remember seeing a documentary not so long ago where they asked men how they knew that sex was finished. And basically the men were saying, ‘Well, because I came,’ and they were [asked], ‘Well, have you checked that she has? Did you ask?’ And the looks on their faces and they hadn't even considered how there might be anything else to do once… you know, because that's what it was about. It was about him ejaculating. So once that had happened, then clearly the sex was over and it just really emphasised how it's become something, as I say, that is a very one-sided affair. 

Gemma: Definitely. And also, women do something called third-person sex ‒ or straight women do, I guess I should say. And that's where, when they're having sex, they're constantly thinking about how they look to the man. And that is because pornography is made for men. So, you have gay porn, which is made for men. Lesbian porn is for men… I mean, all I need to say is the fake nails involved and the lesbians in the audience will get it… it's made for men. 

You know, all of it is made for men, and therefore, the woman who is ingrained in sexual objectification. Her job is to essentially be the hand replacement for the man. And that's what sex is about. Sex is all about him. There is a sexual gratification, but it's the reinforcement of the male gender stereotype about you are the man, you are tough, you are dominant, and all this. And that's where the humiliation part comes in.

But what we found really interesting from the research was that how it affected the link between pornography and crime. Because of how pornography represented sex and the expectations of how men and women would behave, 83% of the women felt that pornography and the influence of pornography has on society, and whether the police officer watches it, whether the judge watches it, whether the men on the jury watch it, CPS… 83% of them said that that affected the decision if they would report anything. 

One question, which I found was the saddest but also completely understood was: If you got raped tomorrow, would you report it? And 91% of the women said, no, they wouldn't. I don't find that surprising because, you know, if we have a historic low conviction rate, those things, they have an effect. With the CPS deciding they're not going to take more cases, that will tell police officers not to take as many, they will tell the people who report, who will tell their friends about this thing. It trickles down and it has impact. I don't think women have faith in the justice system anymore, and frankly I can't blame them.

The majority of the laws made in the United Kingdom were made before women even had the vote. It's a man-made system. That's very much reflected in how crimes, specifically when it is typically men dealing with women, how that's dealt with. 

And one thing that, that I really remembered was from last year, there was a rapist in Manchester who raped men. How that was reported, the massive difference… A lot of these men didn't know they'd been raped. They'd gone back to this man's flat because they were drunk. He drugged them, in drinks, and then he filmed it. So a lot of these men were getting police officers coming around to their house, letting them know that they've been raped, but don't worry, he's already been arrested and here's some support.

That big section in the newspaper reports of what women should and shouldn't be doing… nowhere did it say what any of these men were wearing. Why were these men going back to a flat of the man they didn't even know when they were drunk? What did they expect happen? It wasn't there. It just wasn't there. And I'm not saying that it should have been there. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be there for women and children just as much as it is men. And just the way that it was dealt with. It was just such a massive contrast, and it shows that actually you can do it when you want to, can't you? You can deal with it properly when you want to. But women, essentially, and girls, they don't have faith in the justice system. And unfortunately, if I had a disclosure from a young person, I wouldn't advise them to report it, because this idea that we have this just world where as long as you're telling the truth and you did nothing wrong, you'll get justice, it's just complete fantasy. 

Sally: And you mentioned earlier about bizarrely criminally low conviction rate really shows that that's not a system that's working for women. And if only, I think it's something like 1.9% of those that are charged go on to have a conviction, that just immediately makes me think of those women where there was a charge, and they bravely told their story. They possibly went through some forensic examination for evidence, they may or may not have had their phone taken and all sorts of other very personal things that would've been held on their phone are having to be given up for the sake of the case and such a small percentage of convictions from that. 

And then there's all those women that, for some very good reasons, decide not to make a report. We all know these messages, don't we? We know that the police are going to ask the questions of… Did you know him before? Did you smile at him? Had he bought you a drink? All those crazy questions that have got absolutely nothing to do with sexual assault, but sadly are often asked. I wonder is there a way that women get justice?

Is there a justice system… is there any way in which we can look and say, we're heading in this bit in the right direction, or do we need to look at complete reform? 

Gemma: To be honest, no, it doesn't seem like there is. I know that's not a very inspiring answer. But the problem is, is that rape is a serial offence and it's an escalating offence. It's both of those things, and we can see that with other crimes. So in domestic abuse, every terrorist that we've had since 2001 has had domestic abuse before they have committed this terrorist act. And for myself personally, a majority of the women or girls that are murdered, the perpetrator has raped before.

My sister was murdered and there were at least two counts of rape that I know about where he wasn't prosecuted. So I just… we're being failed so much and it's because we are women. There's no other reason for it. It's because we are, whatever we say, we are seen as devious and less to be believed. Whether that's telling our doctor about our pain or it's a police officer. By failing us, you then going on to fail others. So I just think if the justice system was equal, like it's supposed to be, you know, the whole thing of Lady Justice, being blind and having the scales and stuff. If that actually was how it was, then that would be great.

But as it is, it's a very sexist system. It's very racist. And it's also, there's a big thing with class. I mean, we've had the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard thing recently, and this is like, he's got four other courts lined up because he’s got the money to do it. So we've got all these people who can't get to court because of Covid and all this stuff, but because they've got the money to go, it's just they're there to access whenever they want. It's in a mess. 

And frankly, the problem is, the foxes are in charge of the hen house. Call me pessimistic. But that's the problem. And there's no accountability. There's no accountability for the judge that says, ‘No, the domestic abuse there was fine. Here, have the kids. Oh, the kids are dead. Oh, sorry.’ Where's the accountability? In any other job? If I wasn't qualified to do something, I wouldn't be allowed to practise until I got myself qualified. If they're not qualified in coercive control or consent and things like that, then they shouldn't be practising because they're not doing the job properly. So, yeah, I'm not a big ‘yay for justice!’ because it's a mess. Sorry!

Sally: No apology needed. It just strikes me as you were chatting then as well, it is in the wider society ‒ and I'm thinking probably mostly social media and the press ‒ around those attitudes towards always thinking the best of men. So, still the number of people that are doing the ‘Free poor Johnny’ or ‘Justice for Johnny’. You've got clear evidence presented in court, including pictures etc. Clearly this is an abusive man, and yet there are still some people that do the ‘But’ and the ‘She asked for it’. 

I suppose the justice system is a reflection of the sexist, patriarchal society which we're part of. So, the press reflects that. The justice system reflects that. I'm just thinking back… as far as justice and women… thinking back to the Corston Report and the idea that, actually, for women involved with the criminal justice system, we just need to start again. There will be a very few cases where women may need to be imprisoned, but basically what we're talking about is women that have experienced an awful lot of trauma and they may need help around substance misuse, mental health, whatever, and women's centres being a much better way to be able to deal with. 

And although that was clearly presented years ago, we're still really waiting for that to be implemented. So the idea that we would look at how women are affected by the justice system when it's men that are breaking the law, is absolutely something to aim for. But it strikes me that feels like a long way off that we will get there. 

Gemma: Yeah, I think with a lot of feminist issues, it's like we've just had an earthquake and you're there with that plastic dustpan and brush that you've just bought from the pound shop and you're like, ‘Okay, let's get to it.’

But the thing is, there have been so many things that women have changed and have done. Like the amazing campaigners We Can't Consent To This. You know, it was 68 women last year murdered. And the men said, ‘Oh, it was just rough sex.’ I'm not being funny, but unless your dick is made out of dynamite, I'm not buying it. I'm just not. 

Even when we're dead, our consent is called into question. Even when we're dead, it's our fault. You know, it's never their fault. And, I think, as much as I get called a man hater for this, and how terrible they feel for my son and blah, blah, blah… The fact is, as long as we keep ignoring the facts, and I will say that the fact that men are the majority of perpetrators and men are violent and men are rapists and paedophiles and abusers, as long as we don't acknowledge that, then we can't prevent it. So as long as we keep ignoring it, we are failing young boys to the same fate. Because something is happening between being brought up by the mums because the dads are elsewhere, not paying for the kids, and they love the moms, to these crime statistics. Something is happening in between and until we acknowledge it and we address it, and we look at that, we're failing boys.

It's not man hating to not bring it up. It's man hating to not talk about it. And frankly, women and girls deserve better. How many centuries do you expect us to… You know, in every century, in every race, in every class, in every country, men are committing the majority of these crimes. But we're just not supposed to mention it. I'm sorry, no! 

Sally: It's the game we play, isn't it? When something's reported on the telly, a crime against a woman that's been reported, you know that the more serious the crime, the more likely there's been several crimes committed before that, that he's either been convicted of or not. It's just so glaringly obvious that if we could stop those much earlier, that would prevent so much harm to women. 

Gemma: And he's always such a good guy, isn't he? Or a family man. The way that things are reported is, again, a big sign to victims saying, ‘He's right, you know, when he said you wouldn't be believed, he was right. Look!’ It's just very much against us and what's behind it all is this idea that we're not human beings. We're not people. We’re objects, and the object is there to serve the needs of the subject. And objects are replaceable and objects are disposable and we're not people, and that's at the heart of it. Gender stereotypes are so unbelievably limiting and damaging and I’m dead set against being forced in any of them. 

Sally: It strikes me as well. The other thing that, that we hear so often from the press is how it was an isolated incident, or the police themselves reporting it, ‘Don't worry, stay calm. It was just an isolated incident.’ And that struck me, thinking about the women in the survey that you spoke to for these isolated incidents. How many of them had experienced some form of sexual violence or sexual harassment out of the 600 plus that returned the survey?

Gemma: So… 73% of them experienced sexual assault. 64% of them have experienced rape. 79% of them have experienced sexual harassment, and 21% of them have experienced revenge porn. And I think what that made me think of was the infamous sentence: boys will be boys. And the other side of the ‘boys will be boys’ coin is: sexual abuse is normal. It's part of growing up for a girl. That's what you're saying when you're saying boys will be boys. That's the fate that that you're giving girls, when you say that. I hate that phrase, ‘boys will be boys’ because it directly contradicts ‘not all men’. So it's like, well, which is it lads? 

Sally: You can’t have both.

Gemma: Pick a side. Pick a side. And so we're expected… we're ingrained by our experiences and even dads will say ‘Don't wear that. Don't go there. Because I know what boys are like.’ Right. So it's not a case of ‘not all men ‒ there's loads of good guys’. The reality is you do know, you know exactly what men are like, but you're just going to lie for years until you have a teenage daughter. So it's not like they don't know what's going on. They know exactly what's going on. They're just happy with the way it is. 

Sally: And I think towards the end of the survey there was a really telling question, and it's such a simple thing, but I think the results were just completely underlined, all of the information that'd been gathered in the report.

So basically you said ‘How would you feel if you were in a room and you realised that that room was filled only with males?’ What were some of the responses to that?

Gemma: Well, I think it was a train carriage, because I wanted to think of a situation that was technically in public and so to see if the women would feel safer because it was in public or not.

Because there's that old joke, isn't there? If there was a planet only of women, that would be a man's paradise but a woman's hell. And most of them showed in their answers the training or the socialisation that women experience. That tight line between, if there's a man there, you have to risk assess a situation to whether he's going attack you or not, because if he is, it's your job to prevent it and don't assume that every guy's going attack you. Why do I have to be such a bitch? 

So all of the answers displayed that. So there were all things like: I would try and go in the corner and pretend to listen to some music. I would avoid eye contact. They were all sort of internal things that they felt they would do themselves to keep themselves safe, but they all said things like they were terrified. They were trying to do breathing exercises until the next stop. Most of them said they would get off at the next stop, whether it was their stop or not.

One of them said ‘Well, it would depend if one of the men worked for the train or not. And if he did, I would go and talk to him.’ But only one of them sort of said that. The majority of them were very much things that they would try and do, like pretend they're reading, and if the men talked to them, try to be friendly, try and just go along with whatever it was they wanted to talk about. Try and go in a corner, try and sit next to a window where people could see you. 

So, again, it's we have to take responsibility for their behaviour. But the fact is, if men have so little self-control that they can't be held responsible for their behaviour, then what are they doing in the police? What are they doing in the courts? And what are they doing in the CPS? If they have so little self-control, they shouldn't be there. Either men have enough self-control, and they should be there, or they don't have enough self-control, in which case we're not to blame. Again, it's another contradiction, isn't it? 

Sally: And I bet that if a man walked into a train carriage and noted that it was just other women there, that he wouldn't spend one second thinking about his safety.

Gemma: No, absolutely not. I have spoken to a male friend because, you know, despite my reputation, I do have male friends. And we had kind of a similar conversation, and he was like ‘Oh well, I wouldn't mind, you know, being harassed on the street by a woman.’ I went ‘That's because that's not the same. We can't overpower you. You don't have the same fear. So instead of “Oh, I wouldn't mind being in that situation with women.” How would you feel if you were in a prison shower? Because that's actually the equivalent.’ And then he started saying how he would be really aware and how he would have to watch what everyone's doing and be really scared.

And that's how we have to feel if we're walking down the street at night. Not because we've committed any crime, just because we're women. And I think that's, that's a really important thing about the 16 Days and about the research ‒ it's all about because you are female, this is how it is.

It doesn't matter how nice you are, it doesn't matter if you are a nun or a child, or a virgin or a slut or any of it… it doesn't matter. If you are a female, here are the things you're supposed to do. Here are the things you're not supposed to do. Here are all the contradictions. Oh, and by the way, it's all your fault. And that's it. And it's just because we're female and it sounds really easy to say oh, it's a man's world, but it is. And that's a problem. 

Sally: It's the reality in which we live, isn't it? You know, there's no use pretending that we've got to a state where the world is balanced equally. Women as a sex class are not equal.

Gemma: Despite what men on the internet say. 

Sally: From their little basements. So what can we do Gemma? It's a stark place to recognise and it's really important, and the 16 Days gives us an opportunity to raise awareness and to let people recognise the reality of living life as a female in 2020. But what can we do to improve things, to move things forward?

Gemma: Well, as we're being recorded, I'll limit my answers. Now, the things that we can do is use the 16 Days for what the 16 Days is for. It's not about ticking a corporate box or celebrating womanhood or any other nonsense. It's about, let's talk about the fact that there is sexed violence going on, and why is that.

And that can be work with boys or girls, parents, professionals, whatever. Because until we acknowledge, like I say, until we acknowledge that it's an issue, we can't start solving it. So, you know, it's about 16 days of action. Let's talk about that action. Let's fight. Well, what can we do? 

One year we had kind of a tree sculpture in our town. For each branch, there was sort of a paper pledge where we went up to men. You know, I was very popular and I go up to any man that walked past and I said ‘Domestic abuse is really bad and men are doing it. So what are you going to do about it?’ And they say ‘Well what can I do about it?’ I said, ‘Well, when your mates laugh or they make a rape joke or they show you pictures of their naked girlfriend when she's asleep, or your porn hub choices, you can do a lot of things about it. So what are you going to do about it? Because it's men that are doing it. So what are you doing about it?’

Because this title of good guy ‒ not all men ‒ well prove it! Because frankly, when I've gone on these ‘How we can prevent child abuse’ seminars, there ain't no blokes there. When I go on the Reclaim the Streets, the anti-rape marches, there ain't no blokes there. The only contribution they've had so far is ‘not all men’. Well frankly, prove it. Prove it. Why? What are you doing? So to raise awareness and to put the responsibility where it belongs and just say, you know… We don't say not all cigarettes cause cancer; not all matches start fires.

Well, I don't really give a shit. Not all men do this or that. So I would say use the 16 Days to have uncomfortable conversations. And there's plenty out there to talk about. There's not a single country in the world that has achieved equality of the sexes, not a single one. So there's plenty of crap out there and we've given them enough time. 

Sally: I think you're absolutely right and the only thing I would say, a bit of a bug bear for me personally, is I think men absolutely should be doing that. But I will not give them a badge and I will not give them a high five for proving that they are just being a decent human being. Because anyone who tries to stop violence against women, that's a very low standard that we're asking. So, absolutely get involved. But don't think you're some kind of wonderful human being because you've agreed that it's wrong to hurt women. That's a very low bar. 

Gemma: Yeah, they don't get any cookies. I've seen some things over the years, like, what was that guy's name? He couldn't, you know… the whole incel movement. He couldn't get a girlfriend. So he went and shut up a school. I've been rejected by women. I go get some Ben and Jerry's and have a wank. I don't go around shooting up a school or a women's fitness centre or something like that. Does that mean I'm a hero because I've taken rejection? 

But again, it’ back to the gender stereotype of… the woman has to say it nicely, but clearly. Because again, men can't be responsible for their own emotional health because guys aren't allowed to have feelings. It's the whole gender stereotype nonsense. And, no, they absolutely don't deserve a cookie. 

I think instead of giving them praise, positive reinforcement like we do with children, what we should do is like the opposite. When they do something that isn't okay, say so. And say to your male friends ‘Well, if you don't say anything, you are condoning and enabling that. So you're not a good guy. Give me that badge back that you've given yourselves, frankly. Give it back, that's not allowed for you.’ 

And, you know, in everyday life, just say things… I've been on a date a while ago with this guy, and he asked me what my pubic hair was like and whether I had any, and that he liked it when women didn't. And I just sat there and I said ‘Oh right, well how long have you been a paedophile for then?’ And just the shock on his face. But you know, we have to just say this stuff. We have to… we have to just call them out for the stuff that that they're doing. 

And the men in our lives, if they claim to love us and they claim to be good guys, well let's call their bluff. Let's say to them ‘Well, what are you doing about it then?’ And just… in the 16 Days, raise awareness, cause trouble, be annoying, upset the men on the internet, collect their tears and use it as moisturiser. Do all those things and at the end of it, congratulate yourself with a massive cake. 

Sally: I knew we'd get to cake.

Gemma: Well, it's the law, Sally, it's the law. We should always talk about cake on every single podcast. I know I'm the only one that advocates for it.

Sally: But you do it so well. So come on then. What would be your best 16 Days cake? Or am I making an assumption there? Are we talking about a different cake for each of the 16 days or… how does it work?

Gemma: I like your thinking there, Sally. I do. Maybe one for mornings, one for afternoon. Okay, the best experience I've had with cake and there have been a lot. But my favourite experiences with Cake was when I was at Bolton Uni, (whispers: don't go there). When I was at Bolton Uni, I started the Feminist Society, obviously. And we had a load of vulva cupcakes, and the sign said: If you can spot a clitoris on any of our cupcakes, you get this Amazon voucher. Safe to say, that day I went home with 50 cupcakes and the Amazon vouchers. 

Sally: Why am I not surprised? Clearly there weren't many lesbians coming to that cake stall. 

Gemma: No, there wasn't many of anything really. But yeah, so that's my favourite cake experience. But if I had to pick a 16 Days one, I'll probably say Black Forest gateau because it's my favourite. 

Sally: It is good. It's got everything hasn't, a bit of alcohol, a bit of chocolate.

Gemma: Well, it's got fruit, so it’s practically a salad.

Sally: Absolutely. Sorted. So before we go, I'd just like you to tell us a little bit more about Yes Matters, because you do some fantastic work with Yes Matters. So, can you tell us a little bit about some of the work that you are involved with the young people.

Gemma: So, with the young people we do… At the moment, we've just been lottery funded to do online support because… The thing about lockdown is we've heard a lot about domestic abuse and rightly so, but the other issue is the majority of perpetrators of child sexual abuse are family members or family friends. So, the reality is a lot of victims are trapped in lockdown with their perpetrators. And so, we're doing online support, so any young person that wants to contact us through TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, or email, they can contact us ‒ confidential online support.

And the things that we'll be doing with them is essentially critical analysis stuff. So, we know the grooming that the perpetrator will be doing. But if while they're doing that, we're having conversations where they realise that that's not true, and hear the tactics that they're going to use. Once you're armed with the information about tactics, the tactics stop working.

So even though we can't face-to-face go round and help them, we can help them in that way. And then once lockdown is over, if it's ever over ‒ will it ever be over? ‒ but you know when it's safe to do so, we can also then help them practically, as well. So that's like the online stuff that we're doing. We're also going to be doing some online training around child sexual abuse and child sexual exploitation and how not to deal with it, mostly for social workers, unfortunately. 

And we're also doing rehabilitation youth work. So, we can't have any more than six young people at a time. But we have sessions on every day of the week. And again, it's unpicking the grooming because the reality is that once you have been a victim of that, you're more likely to be re-exploited if you don't get rehabilitation. And we think that that fails young people twice. We do that stuff with them as well. 

And it's just really good to see the click. You know, they come in thinking everything's their fault and that the causing trouble and everything's wrong with them. Until, a few weeks in where they realise, actually, their voices matter and what they think matters and what they feel matters. 

And if it doesn't get resolved, you end up with complex PTSD, which I have myself, and it's like a stone on your back. It does affect you all the time because if you feel worthless, you're not going to go for, you know, that job application. You're not going to go for that person you really like. You're going to accept this bad behaviour from this person because you know you're not worth anything else. So we don't want that to happen. We get in there, cause havoc, upset councils and make friends.

Sally: And change young people's lives, which is brilliant. So, thank you so much for the work that you do with, with women and girls. It's making a huge difference and for being involved with FiLiA and you know, clearly the input you have, as well as the cake.

Gemma: It's 80% cake, I'm not going to lie. 

Sally: No, it's been great chatting to you. I think the research is really important. I'd really recommend when it's launched with the 16 Days that people have a read through, because you will learn something. You will recognise some things that will seem very familiar to you as well, but as you said earlier, really importantly, then use it to take some action.

Gemma: Yeah. And, you know, if you want to use me as a scapegoat, having a conversation with your boss or your friend, or your boyfriend even… just like ‘Look at what this woman wrote.’ That's fine. That's completely fine. Make me the bad guy. I'm happy to take that fall. And if anyone that you know needs help or a young person that needs help for anything, just contact us anytime.

Sally: And we'll put some information about the services available along with the podcast as well. So, thanks Gemma, as always, you’re awesome. We love you loads. 

Gemma: You're biased, but thank you.