Sally Jackson and Alex from FiLiA in conversation with Cristina Pandolfo.

SJ – Cristina, what are the Dianic traditions?

C – Thank you for having me, I hope my English will be clear enough for people to understand, I apologise if I use a word in the wrong way.

The Dianic Tradition is a spiritual path. I don’t like to use the word religion because there is a lot of patriarchal influence in that word, it means a lot of structure so I describe it as a spiritual path, a spiritual way to live your life especially if you are a female.

Very briefly, the Dianic tradition can be described as a goddess and female centre spirituality which has been brought back to life by the author and activist Zsuzsanna Budapest in the early 1970s and was especially a way to empower women to fight the patriarchy. So another way to give the missing link of empowerment to women and a reconnection with a spiritual path, specific for female embodying.

This spirituality combines, a spirituality of the matriarchal religion of the great Mother, with modern witchcraft and feminist politics. 

Feminism is really present in the rituals and celebrations of the Dianic tradition because it deeply believes that we are not disconnected from material reality that we are living. Politics, whether we like it or not, is another way that we are involved in this material reality. It also touches women very closely, in terms of wellbeing or rights and so it would make sense for something else to be incorporated on the practical magical path and the activities that are part of this spiritual movement.

That itself is a creative tradition which is based on female blood mysteries, its practice includes specifically celebrating and honouring the physical emotional spiritual passage of women’s life because through this honouring we can sanctify our life again.

SJ – Thank you a good overview. I think people have often been interested in feminism and how that impacts their life and may be aware and involved in different ways in Pagan traditions and witchcraft and perhaps have not recognised how these two paths come so closely together and are intertwined.

Am I right in thinking the Dianic tradition is female only? Can you talk about why it is running that way?

C – There are several branches of the Dianic tradition because at the same time different traditions were embracing both the figure of Diana and acquired this name. Even within the Dianic tradition that was born from the times of female activists, some developed a more inclusive group. The Dianic tradition that I specifically have been ordained which is the lineage of Ruth Barrett, is specifically for female only.

The reason why it’s specifically for female only is because it’s a kind of initiative path based on the female blood mysteries and woman-created power.

So all the practices and rituals are developed mainly through the physical, spiritual and cultural and social experience of womanhood from birth to death. So you need to embody the female biologically to experience these life passages, to understand them in a way that is involving the spiritual and the energy realm. 

The biology of being female is extremely important, even if you don’t give birth or cannot give birth physically to a child, still in the empty space of your womb, in each of your cells which are programmed as female cells (cells of a female body), there is the creative power, the energy, the experience of being female which is also reflected in the spiritual and energy realm.

Because of this strict necessity of biological embodiment, my specific tradition and its practices and rituals which move around this embodiment of being female, are female-only.

I think since the beginning of spirituality there has been female mystery and male mystery so it’s not a new concept, this division.

What’s important to know is that the exclusivity of the female biology is not extended to the other areas of your life and doesn’t imply any kind of feeling of “being better”, it’s just a different experience. You can still have a perfect life that you share with (someone of) another different sex, but your Dianic practice, rituals and spirituality, is a female-only path. At least the Dianic Female tradition, which is the one I am talking about, I am teaching and I have been ordained into.

There are other traditions that are open to both sexes.

From the point of view of this specific (female-only) Dianic branch, it’s impossible to be part of this branch without being female.

SJ – It’s centred on the female body.

C – The female body also as a place where healing from the patriarchal influence, development, and all those things that create the experience of life and evolving into life as a spiritual being happen. So we cannot separate the physical reality, the physical body from the spiritual energy. It doesn’t really work like that, not in the Dianic tradition.

We work as a whole, with many layers.

SJ – Alex, is that what attracted you to this particular path? 

A – Yes, absolutely, there’s a lot that we, as women go through as a result of our birth sex and I think that the effect of the Dianic path is to try to find a healing for that. I was already involved with Pagan traditions prior to this. I first found Wicca in my teens and then moved on to Druidry. I was always very critical of the patriarchal elements of ‘classic’ Pagan faiths.

With that in mind, how does the Dianic tradition view the classic duality between man and woman?

C – You mean from a spiritual point of view?

A – Yes, and how the Dianic tradition deals with being female only?

C – This is something that is often misunderstood. In terms of duality, especially concerning the duality between a god and a goddess, which is really like very present in Pagan traditions. Most of them are based on a duality of a god and a goddess.

So sometimes it happens that the first impact with the Dianic tradition from an outsider, the first thing they will say to me is – but they are not balanced, because they don’t work, honour and engage with a god and we need to have both polarities – what they fail to see is that the Dianic tradition doesn’t work at the level of the separation of duality, it works with the source which we can consider as a mother cell from which all the dualities have been created. At the level we work on the connection with the Divine, everything is incorporated, there is no duality therefore there cannot be a separation, if there is no separation there is no need to complement anything because we are whole, everything is there.

So, it is like the step before the two, which is One. In the Dianic tradition, this One, this mother cell is metaphorically, physically and literally because of the creative process, interpreted as female but also because it’s a reflection of ourselves, our sacred selves in the spiritual realm, which we are a fragment of, a part of, because there is a spark of the divine within everyone of us.

But also, this separation wasn’t always like this. The first religion of the world started from an Unicum, a One, that after has been divided as a reflection of a society that was changing, and with society changing was the role of women within the society and so this great Mother, this primordial cell, this One divine from where everyone was coming from became divided. First, in a “good and bad”, or a goddess of the sky and goddess of the underworld, and after another element has been introduced, a male hero or male god who most of the time is saving you from this “devil female” archetype. This was a reflection of the society changing due to the changing of the structure itself, where the role of women was changing and so did its reflection on the spiritual world. And this started in the late paganism, with the introduction of male gods as Zeus/Jupiter, this kind of patriarchal figures reflection of the new patriarchal society that was born, and then these brought to the most known monotheisms, and the patriarchal rule of the power over, and the division in classes, and the oppression.

Within the Dianic tradition, because us, as women, reflect that primordial Goddess, that Unicum that is complete, there is not a view or need of a male or men counterpart because we are not divided, we don’t need something to compensate us.

Of course if we are talking about reproduction, and the creation of life from a physical point of view, that’s how nature work (the needs for sexual duality), is another topic, but if we are talking about us as individuals, in our own spiritual path and development, we don’t need a man or a “male energy” that compensates, because ultimately, within ourselves there is not a separation between a female and a male energy, and this is another topic in itself in the sense that energy itself doesn’t have sex. It’s the way we embody energy, that is strictly connected to the biology of our bodies, that changes the experience we do of that energy. But the energy itself is not female or male, it doesn’t have female or male qualities. Energy might have different kinds of movement, a spiral movement, a direct movement, a movement (toward) in or out, but this sometimes has been, in my opinion, wrongly associated with female or male characteristics, rooted in a kind of gender archetype/stereotype which doesn’t make sense from a spiritual or energy point of view.

Within ourselves we are a whole and don’t need anything from another human being to compensate us, because “male energy” or “female energy” is just the embodiment a neutral force based on the biology you have, you are, on your body. This is why female and male mysteries are important because you are still being affected by the biology you are embodying, even if the energy is a neutral energy but it is expressed in a form, and through experiences, that are different based on the biology you are embodying.

A – What are some of the early historical archetypes of women that may have contributed to the demonisation of women?

C – Well, we need another podcast for that.

First you can see the majority demons, which probably were not born as demons. Let’s take for example Medusa. Medusa herself was the Goddess of the underworld. She was embodying the chthonic powers of regeneration connected to the snake and a lot of other things, but she became a monster, especially she became a monster on her myth as a consequence of a rape and the killing of her children. Or we have other archetypes like Lamie, or the Amazons or the Succubae, if you just study any kind of monster archetype, you will see the majority of them are female, or are born from a female who for some reason was seen as bad, and you will always have a hero who intervenes to save the day. That is part of the narrative, first of the disintegration and fragmentation of the female power, the detachment from the female wild power which was seen as dangerous for men so everything connected to sexuality, autonomy and even free thinking was seen as something bad if attached to a woman. That’s where, in the distorted imagination of the male, this resulted in the creation of this kind of monster which most of the time explicated their malevolent actions though sex, Spirits that sucks life from monks by forcing them to have sexual intercourse, which was a way to explain why monks were having nocturnal orgasms, like the fact that they were human beings (animal impulses) wasn’t enough to explain why they were experiencing that, so they needed a demonization of that action which of course reflected in someone to blame. Most of them were female demons or spirits, you see this for example with the Lamie, Succubae, or the Japanese Kitsune, fox female demons which during the night were trying to have sexual intercourse with monks so they could create half human and half demon children. These stories, so much distorted, come from the male imagination.

S – It’s not that dissimilar from when we talk in present day around women being blamed for what they were wearing or what they were drinking as almost the man couldn’t help but have sex with her because of 20 million different excuses that they will come up with. This is the same old story being repeated again.

C – Exactly, and that is a reflection of societies changes due to the patriarchal system and social structure.

S – With the Dianic tradition being so clearly feminist in its thinking and also centred on the female body. What in current day society does that bring difficulties for you in your practice or for other women? Are you finding that it’s as acceptable in Pagan circles? Wherever we are in the world, when women get together and women are powerful, the patriarchy rebels against it and finds ways to try prevent that from happening. Does that happen with the Dianic practice as well?

C – Yes, unfortunately. This happens because often the fact that we are female exclusive is used as an excuse for some people to harass and oppress on the base accusation of being transphobic or misandric or something like that. They think because it’s female exclusive that we automatically hate men. It doesn’t matter if they identify as men or as transgender women.

This has created even for myself, that I don’t really deal with male activism or transgender activists, there have been problems and being called transphobic just because I was reclaiming my right to gather in female-only space for my spiritual tradition and – let’s be clear, never came out of my mouth or my keyboard any insult towards who is not female. Of course I mean biological female. I’m unable to acknowledge female and males differently from a biological point of view. When I’m talking about female and male I’m talking about biology. It might not be the same for other people.

I’ve had problems when sometimes at my event, if advertised in group, even a pagan group, the first comment was always about being transphobic just because it’s female-only, just to use the word ‘female only’ like it was something bad or an insult. For me it’s a kind of nonsense which sadly hides a lot of misogyny. Because at the moment that you (someone) are trying to avoid only females to gather, to have their own space, or just because they are asking for it, there is a deep rooted misogyny, might the person be aware of that or not. And these kind of comments and action comes both from female than male.

Sometimes I’ve been targeted as transphobic even though I rarely talk about trans matters unless they are strictly related to some feminist situations where they became an opposition, or a problem, to female wellbeing or female rights. In that case I might use the word transgender or trans agenda or whatever it is. But apart from that it’s not something I deal with. I’m a female and I don’t have a problem with the sex I was born into. So it’s not like something I even have the knowledge to talk about. But just for the fact people know I am a Dianic, automatically they accuse me of being transphobic just because my spiritual path is open only and exclusive to females.

Of course it’s not everyone, there are people who are reasonable and see there is no reason for such accusations, but unfortunately nowadays the word transphobic is a kind of key word to silence, together with others, but most of the time when it’s used it doesn’t have a fundament not even for the meaning the word transphobia.

Unfortunately, there’s a lot of pre-judgement towards the Dianic tradition.

Of course we need to consider, there might be women inside the Dianic tradition who are more strong in the way they explicate their (female) activism, and might be interpreted as going against specifically transgender women, but this is the thought of some women, of another person inside a group, it doesn’t make the rule of the group as such.

We have no interest to do a war against transgender people or to do a war against males, biological males.

Our practice and spirituality is just centred in female life and body. It’s just for female and not for male, it’s as simple as that.

S – It’s so interesting that purely and simply as you say because it’s centred on women seems to feel threatening to some men, to the patriarchy etc. and I wondered, we talked earlier about female mysteries. Could you tell us a bit more about what that means?

C – Literally female mysteries are the birth, being born, the menarche, the pregnancy the menopause and death. But it’s more than just physical events. When we experience these life passages through our body, with awareness by celebrating that, we are activating a spiritual channel that is opening to much more than the physical experience. So we grow spiritually through these specific experiences which are only for females.

The one that can be experienced from men, like being born, is still a different experience for any individual.
It’s really the state of mind and awareness we experience, that we embody, during these life passages that makes the difference. Also, we do not need to go through physical pregnancy, as I was saying our body, our cells, being females are already embodying that kind of energy, so we can also be mothers or give birth to something different from a physical child, still working through that kind of energy.

But also by ritualizing these life passages we are re-sanctifying our life, so we are reconnecting to our divine-self through our life experience.

S – What’s unusual in 22nd century, it’s a celebration of all those aspects of womanhood whereas often they have become quite taboo so we don’t talk about our periods or aspects of pregnancy, we are worried about the menopause and see it as a negative stage of life rather than a positive stage of life whereas in the Dianic tradition it’s all really important parts of a woman’s both body and spiritual growth that you would celebrate as you reach them all.

C – It’s not just that, even the experience of our own cycle, monthly, and the different kind of energies established during the month, we can practice magic in a very effective way following those kind of energies as a support rather than go against them. So it’s another element, or layer, of practical magic that we can add, and we can do that because we are female.

Even on the annual, or so called solar celebration of the Sabbaths during the year, each one is connected to a rite passage, so they are occasions to celebrate a specific moment. For example the  May Eve, is the time when we also celebrate the young maiden who had the menarche during that year, and it’s also incorporated on a bigger scale when we do a ritual that embraces the female community.

A - How does the Dianic tradition work to try and heal some of the wounds that the patriarchy has foisted upon women?

C – It might change from person to person in the sense that – one of the beauties of the Dianic tradition is that when you decide to be ordained, usually you nominate your ministry, so the way you personally are using your own gift to the community through the Dianic tradition. Generally, the healing process is happening in our bodies, is done through rituals, dances, meditation, practical magic. This healing can happen in many ways, based on the different characteristics of each woman and the way she feels connected to a practice rather than another. Or the different characteristics of the priestess facilitating this path. She can be focused on one side or another.

A practical example concerning myself: My ministry within the Dianic tradition is helping women to (re)connect with their wild-self, their authentic-self and through that I share the Dianic Tradition and use the practice of the Dianic tradition but it’s also where the healing path from the patriarchy, in my specific case, finds a way, through this work of self-sovereignty and reconnection with the authentic-self.

To do that I use Dianic practices, I use meditation, divination, self-exploration, so going within and that can change from person to person, but usually it is something that is integrated on a bigger structure, might it be a ritual, or mental work or a specific practice. That is how it usually works.

S – Am I correct in thinking, one of the things that attracts women particularly to pagan traditions and perhaps particularly the Dianic tradition, unlike more established religions, although there might be some paths of learning and established ways of acting, actually within your practice it is quite individual, so you may find two women, both working within the Dianic tradition, will practice quite differently because of what feels right and natural for them, so there’s that flexibility within the tradition to work with what your spirit and your body feels is the right practice.

C – Yes, exactly. There are some base practices and that is the beauty of something that is passed (shared), always the same because the repetition of the same ritual empowers it. So there are some practices that are always the same. But, another of the beauties of the Dianic tradition is that you can bring within, and incorporating, as long as they make sense with the Dianic tradition, any kind of practice, so you can bring Luna Yoga ( a kind of female yoga), Ayurveda, Lotus Qigong or Jade Woman Qigong, and many other practices, even different magical practices, inside the Dianic tradition. Of course they need to follow the same kinds of principles working with female divine or entities, otherwise it would be a contradiction.

Everyone, even if we come from the same school, we have a base practice to empower the ritual and create a connection, and also we can bring our own gift, it can be from music, poetry, a physical engagement, martial arts, you can bring as part of the ritual to share.

That is also part of it, to bring and share, because it is very community orientated, even if we can be individual in ourselves, we share in circle. We are equal, it is a communal exchange so we can grow, together.

S – It’s a very egalitarian practice where everyone is valued for whatever skills and knowledge they bring to the circle.

C – Yes, of course within a ritual we have some roles that are necessary. There is who is starting, who is initiated, who is a priestess, and high priestess and that’s necessary in order to run the ritual in a certain way, because it implies a knowledge of the magical action that you have, and acquire, with time. But outside the necessary roles inside the ritual, we are all the same. It is always a circle of exchanging.

S – I hope we’ve garnered some interest in Pagan traditions widely and especially the Dianic tradition. If women want to find out more information, where’s a good place to go to find out more?

C – If women are living in the USA they can look for Temple of Diana, through that they can find all the other connections. Regarding me they can visit www.dominalunae.com through that they can have the contacts and contacting me in private if they have a specific question, or are interested in any my mentoring programme, or if they just want to know something more.

A – I can personally recommend the mentoring programme. One more question.

Why Diana? 

C – The main goddess of Dianic tradition is the Goddess of ten thousand names who embraces all the goddesses of all pantheons of every tradition, which are representations of specific qualities of that Unicum. Diana has been chosen because of what she represents, she is the goddess of sovereignty, she represents the full cycle of life, because she is the huntress and she is the prey as well. She’s the goddess who hunts herself in this infinite cycle. Also because she is the protectress of women and she is really connected to magic and witchcraft, especially in the Italian folk witchcraft tradition. She’s an independent Goddess. She is described as a virgin in the sense of not being the wife of anyone, not being emotionally chained or married. So it’s a virginity that is about being independent and implies sexual freedom. The choice to do what you want.

Of course even in Diana, in time, the myth of Diana, together with others, due to the patriarchy has been changed. Initially Diana was a Mother goddess, similar to the aspect of Artemis of the Potnia Theron. She was a Goddess of sovereignty. Her name itself was connected to the light of the sun so was both goddess of the sun and the moon, after with the patriarchy she became, still saving some of her (original) characteristics, the sister of, and not the wife of (a God). But she is not the sister of anyone, she is the Goddess unto herself and that’s being a whole to herself. A light within ourself, which represents the main meaning of the Dianic tradition, the coming back to wholeness.

This is why Diana, with all her characteristics has been chosen, especially in the 70s due to the feminist movement, as Icon-Goddess of the Dianic Tradition.

Personally, Diana is also my main Goddess, my Matron Goddess. It is not for every Dianic priestess or witch that Diana, or Artemis, has to be the reference goddess. Generally, the main divinity of the Dianic tradition is the Goddess of ten thousand names who represents the web of life itself, creation itself, the whole. Diana/Artemis is the Icon-Goddess.