Raquel: Hello and welcome to the FiLiA podcast. Today FiLiA speaks with Lina Al-Hathloul, who is Loujain Al-Hathloul’s younger sister. Loujain Al-Hathloul is a women's rights campaigner from Saudi Arabia. Her campaigning work includes protesting against the male guardianship system, and also the ban that prohibited women from driving.

 She actively participated in the Saudi Women Driving Campaign, and she posted videos of herself encouraging women to drive their cars within the context of this campaign, in 2013. In December 2014, Loujain was arrested for 73 days, on charges related to her attempt to drive from the United Arab Emirates to Saudi Arabia. She has a United Arab Emirates license.

 She presented herself as a candidate in the local elections in December 2015, the first time that women in Saudi Arabia were allowed the right to vote, but her name was never included in the ballot. Loujain was kidnapped in March 2018, brought back to Saudi Arabia, and released a couple of days later under a travel ban.

 She was later arrested in her home on the afternoon of the 15th of May 2018, along with several prominent women's rights campaigners, on the charge of attempting to destabilise the kingdom. The next month, June 2018, women in Saudi Arabia were granted the right to drive, but Loujain Al-Hathloul and several other women's rights campaigners remained behind bars.

 Her family states that Loujain has been tortured repeatedly, including beatings, waterboarding, and sexual assault. We're speaking today with Lina Al-Hathloul, with her younger sister. Lina has become one of the few family members able and willing to speak out on behalf of an incarcerated relative. Lina is a lawyer by training, and is based in Brussels, therefore she's more able to speak and travel freely.

 Given that many relatives of Saudi political prisoners are subject to travel bans themselves, or/and are cowed by fear of retaliation by the present Saudi government, Lina has become a tireless advocate for her sister, Loujain. She has spoken to numerous media outlets at international events and gatherings, and to representatives of the US government, and to the United Nations.

 Lina continues to bring to light the widespread mistreatment and torture of prisoners, such as her sister Loujain, at the hands of the Saudi government. Thank you so much, Lina, for speaking with us at FiLiA. 

 Lina: Thank you so much for having me.

Raquel: First of all, how are you?

Lina: I am good. I am motivated. I have to be resilient, and as long as Loujain is not free, I won't stop.

 Raquel: Yes. Well, reading about your sister and what she has been going through, it… I can imagine that it takes a great strain, on the family, on her in particular, but also on her family. So how is she, how is Loujain right now? 

 Lina: So the last news… Loujain is, you know, she's very strong and it's really impressive for us to see that even after two years and a half of prison, she's still very strong. So what we see is that they really try to break her. They try to silence her. So, for example what they try to do is, they just cut any contact with the family for months. They refuse any calls or visits from the family. 

What they try to do also is make her deny the torture, and Loujain refused this. So in August of last year the Saudi authorities came into her prison cell and asked her to sign on a statement, where she would be released if she denies publicly the torture, but she refused this. Because, you know, for Loujain, it's not only about her being free, it's about the whole system, and the injustices she's been through have to be told to the world, so that no one else will suffer what she's suffered.

 And also when they stopped the calls and visits for approximately four months of this year, ‘til August. At the end of August my parents got a call from the prison, saying that they have a visit. And when they saw Loujain, so four months later, they saw her, she was really skinny, and they had a discussion and at the end, Loujain told them that she had to go on a hunger strike for six days to be able to have a visit. So she really had to put her life in danger to have just her basic right of hearing her parents' voice. 

 Raquel: Sorry, what does it mean that she had to go on a hunger strike to be able to have a visit? 

 Lina: So it means that, during these months where Loujain was not allowed to have any calls or visits, the prison was telling her that it's because of Covid, and because, you know, they're reorganising everything, and that, you know, the measures are making it a bit difficult for them to allow her any visits or calls.

 But then once, she was talking to another detainee, who told her that she has regular calls with her family. And so Loujain really got mad about this, and she knew it was a punishment against her only, you know, it's not about reorganising or that it's, you know, a general policy in the prison that no one can talk to their families.

 So to show them that she's really angry at their treatment, she went on a hunger strike. And then they came, first day, second day, third day, and on the third day, they came into her cell and said… they tried to force her to eat. And she said, “no, look, if you won't respect any of my basic rights in prison, I'm just, you know, going to go on a hunger strike. And if I have, basically, if I have to die, I will die, you know, because it just doesn't make sense that I'm the only one not talking to my family.” 

 She's not even judged. So it's really an arbitrary detention and they're killing her psychologically. And so after six days the prison agreed that if she eats on that day, they will allow her to have a visit. And so they agreed on that, Loujain ate, and they called my parents to allow them to visit her.

 Raquel: Are the other women who are in prison also related - the women that she was speaking with, who were telling her that they were allowed to have visits with their families - were they also prisoners related to the driving ban? 

 Lina: Yes. So there were at least eleven women and men arrested regarding the driving ban. Some of them got released in April 2019, but there are still some women who are imprisoned with Loujain now, including Nouf Abdulaziz and Mayya Al-Zahrani.

 Raquel: Yes. And so, her contact with her family, visits but also phone calls, how has that been throughout the past two years? You were mentioning before we started recording that the last visit that she had was in September 2 020, but that it was essentially one visit per month.

 Lina: Yeah, so there has been different phases. At the very beginning when she got arrested, she was held incommunicado for approximately a month. So my parents didn't know where Loujain was when she got arrested. For a month they didn't have any calls or visits. And after a month Loujain called and she was telling them that she was in a hotel. At that time we didn't know what that meant, you know.

 She told them that she flew from the capital, Riyadh, where she used to live, to Jeddah, where there is a political prison there. But she was telling them that she's in a hotel, but at that time, we didn't know what it meant. And she would call regularly, but they didn't have any visits.

 Then in August, they had their first visit, and it was very shocking. I mean, I remember the first call, when I called them after their visit, my parents were really down and depressed. They could barely speak to us and tell us what they've seen, but then later on they talked about it.

 And basically Loujain, when she arrived, she was shaking, she could barely sit, she had red marks on her body. She had a very terrified look. And you know, when she had a glass of water and things to eat on the table, she could barely grab them, because her body was shaking. Then later on, so starting August, they would have one visit per month.

 And so after the killing of the journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, there has been so many reports about torture in prisons, and that they would call it, also, ‘hotels’. And so my parents, when they read this, they said, okay, “now we are sure that Loujain is part of this, but she has to tell us.” And Loujain has never told them anything, you know, because she worries about us. She doesn't want anyone to, you know, to be worried about her. She's always the one taking the risks for everyone. She's always taking it, you know, she doesn't like it when others worry about her, so she didn't say anything.

 But when my parents found out about this article and the reports, the next visit - so that was in October or November, I need to check - 2018, they said, they told her during the visit, “look, Loujain, we have read the reports. We know what happens in these prisons. Now please, just tell , so we can help you.” And on that day, she really started crying and started giving the details of the torture. She told them that they would take her at night to electrocute her, water board her. They would beat her, sexually harass her.

 And that was when she was (in), what she used to call, ‘the hotel’. And then - so during all this time, there was no trial, no official charges – then, in March 2019, they started the trial and she found out about her charges on that day. And when she read the charges, it's really all about her activism.

 So they say that, you know, “she goes to international conferences to talk about the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia,” but then they add, “to destabilise the country,” or, “following a foreign agenda,” you see? So they really write all her activism, and they always add that it's, you know, that it's because she's against her own country. So when they say that she was in contact with Amnesty or Human Rights Watch, it's to - how do you say this - to destabilise the country and to, you know, give a bad image of her country.

 And that was in March. There has been three sessions of the trial. So the first one where she found out about the charges, the second one where she gave her defence, the third one where the public prosecutor answered, basically replied, to her defence, and then it was postponed ‘til February 2020.

 So from April 2019 to February 2020, there was no trial. We don't know why. They didn't give us any reasons. And she was put in solitary confinement. So Loujain was put in solitary confinement for months. And that was really, I think, one of the most difficult periods of her imprisonments because when she got out of the solitary confinement, everything would hurt her.

 So every sound, she would just get really scared at anything she hears because, you know, it's been months that she hadn't heard anything. And so she asked the prison to stay in solitary confinement because it was just unliveable for her to hear so many things at once. And she asked them if they could gradually re-socialise her, basically.

 So she would stay in solitary confinement and have a couple of hours with the people, and just do this gradually. And this is her situation now, actually. She's in solitary confinement, but she still sees people. And now the trial is just being postponed indefinitely. So we have no idea what is happening.

 Raquel: Well, I'm very sorry, Lina. Is the place where she is right now, is that the ‘hotel’, which is essentially a torturing location?

 Lina: No, no. So now she's back in. So once they started the visits, so in August 2018, she was put back in the official prison. So now she's in an official prison. So in Riyadh.

 Raquel: Yes. And you are a lawyer by training. I wonder if you were, not inspired, but sort of galvanised, to study law because of what you witnessed your sister go through?

 Lina: I mean, when I started my studies, Loujain was still not, you know, arrested and tortured at that time. She was an activist, and it's true that I was very inspired by her, but I don't think I would have ever imagined that, you know, she would be in such a legal, a fake legal, procedure when I was studying law.

 So it's really two different, I would say, two different situations, when I was studying law and the situation. Now. 

 Raquel: Yes. Does she have legal representation? Loujain? 

 Lina: So it's very difficult. So this case is very, you know, it was very public. When she got arrested there was a media defamation campaign where they would label her a traitor, that she's a spy, and so on. So I think it was very difficult for all the lawyers in Saudi Arabia to represent her, especially that now, you know, no one is independent anymore. You know, we are in a police state, so it's almost impossible to have an independent defence.

 So only one lawyer proposed his services, but Loujain never accepted. Because as I said, the charges are her activism, and this lawyer, he wanted her to deny all the charges, to basically say, “okay, no, I didn't do this, I didn't do that.” And Loujain said, told him, “no, that's not how I want to be defended. I want to say, of course I did this, and there is nothing illegal about it.” So they didn't agree on that. And now my parents, even though they are not lawyers, take on her defence. 

 Raquel: Your parents? 

 Lina: Yeah.

 Raquel: Wow. Are there any other lawyers who could assist? I mean, was that the only option?

 Lina: It's very difficult now in Saudi Arabia, you know, we're in a regime where they either think you are with them, or against them. So if a lawyer defends someone like Loujain, who has been so publicly shamed, they would think that this lawyer is against them and he would probably get arrested too. Actually, part of the eleven people who got arrested with Loujain, one of them was her ex-lawyer who defended her during her first trial in 2014.

 Raquel: Wow. Well, okay, that all sounds so grim, Lina, so thank you so much for speaking with us. 

 Lina: Thank you very much. 

 Raquel: So could you take us a little bit back - I mean, I wanted to ask you this first, but we just kind of carry on – so could you take us a little bit back to Loujain, and her beginnings in women's rights activism? So, how did her campaigning for women's rights begin? What age was she, and what did that look like?

 Lina: So… Loujain has always been someone who questions everything. You know, I think since she was a kid she would question everything. And she needs to have coherent and understandable answers. She won't settle for anything. 

 But her real activism, as in a more political one, was when she was studying in Vancouver, Canada. So she started in a very, you know, fun, joyful, young way. She was posting fun videos online, you know, one-minute videos where she was giving her opinions on some social matters in Saudi Arabia.

 And then it all evolved and she started talking about, you know, the right for women to drive. Especially that there was a big campaign in Saudi, and she became one of the leaders of this campaign. And the thing is, a lot of women were a bit, criticising her, for you know, speaking outside of the country, telling her that it's easy for her, you know, to be so critical when she's not living it every day.

 Loujain said, “look, I know I'm a privileged woman. I know, you know, I have a supportive family. And this is exactly why I want, you know, just to enjoy life as I could. I have to take, you know, some risks for the women of my country who cannot speak out.” So she came back to Saudi Arabia and she started her campaign for the woman to drive, and she drove. Once in 2013 and she didn't get arrested, and then she really continued till her arrest of 2014.

 In 2014, she filmed herself live trying to cross the border between the Emirates and Saudi Arabia, and she got arrested and imprisoned a first time. And as she was young, she got imprisoned in what they call ‘care homes’ or, you know, it's a kind of - it is, prisons, actually - for minors.

 But what is important to understand is that in Saudi Arabia, there's a male guardianship system. So basically all women are considered minors till the end of their lives and every decision, so every decision has to be accepted by your male guardian who's either your father, your brother, your husband, yeah, it depends on your situation. And so she got imprisoned in this ‘care home’, which is a prison for minors, but it's also where women who are victims of domestic violence are put, because if you complain against your male guardian who has been abusing you, you go to this care home.

 So Loujain really lived with them, for 73 days, and she saw that... She realised that the problem is not only about driving, it's the whole male guardianship system that that needs to to be ended. So when she got out of prison, she basically broadened her activism and started campaigning against the male guardianship system.

 And she, you know, it was more organised, more, you know, institutionalised a bit. And she was going to international conferences. And the last one she went to was in Geneva, the UN. So there was an official Saudi delegation there, so representing the government, where they were talking about women's rights in Saudi Arabia.

 And they were only saying, you know, “everything's improving, we are respecting our engagements.” And Loujain was the only independent Saudi voice at that conference. And so what she was doing, is that she was tweeting, taking videos of this Saudi allegation speaking, and she would tweet it and give a real fact, so counter-fact. Saying, “you say this, but look, no we didn't, we don't respect this, because we still have this law, we still have this and that.”

 So basically she was giving another point of view on the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia. That was in February 2018. And then, so she came back to the Middle East. A month later she got kidnapped and then she got imprisoned.

 Raquel: But that's quite a jump, you know, from making videos, sort of, protesting when she was in college, to being invited to Geneva as a speaker. I mean, could you take us a little bit through how that happened? How did she become such a renowned campaigner, women's rights campaigner?

 Lina: What should be known is that, you know, we have to also put everything in context. I mean, in Saudi Arabia, there are not so many voices that, you know, that dare to speak because of how the whole system is made. So Loujain is really one, you know, of the only voices that would speak with her name, with her picture, and be open about what she thinks. She has done this at her, you know, taking so many risks.

 And it's also because, you know, once she graduated she also started her masters. So even, you know, her activism also got more mature. She started, you know, contacting human rights organisations, giving them facts, and then starting to draft reports. And so it really became a bit more, I would say, not serious, but more organised and on paper you could see what Loujain’s activism was.

 So also she has a website, where she would write how the Saudi law is, and then give comments on that, you see. So she was really giving a clear and understandable view of what the law in Saudi Arabia is. And as there are not many Saudi voices, she was one of the main voices regarding women's rights situation in Saudi Arabia.

 And she started, you know, engaging as a, you know, civil society. Saying that, “Saudi people should be heard, it's not always the government.” And then, so, you know, institutions like the UN invited her as an independent voice and it really grew big.

 Raquel: Yes. She sounds like such a force to be reckoned with.

 Lina: Absolutely.

 Raquel: Could you… what is your sister like? What is Loujain like, what is her personality like? 

 Lina: Loujain? Yeah. She's very, very spontaneous. You know, she doesn't have any… she doesn't really double think what she is going to say. She's spontaneous, she's very funny. I mean, everyone who meets her really likes her.

 She's quite calm actually. She's not, you know, she's not the kind of person you - how do you say this - have the attention on directly in a room. So she really also listens a lot to people. She's very independent and she likes to… she's always very busy.

 She had her own company, so it was a talent agency, before she got arrested. She was part of the Global Compact, she was a part of One Young World. She was very, very active and she's very dynamic. And she's an artist also. So I think, yeah, I mean, she's really an incredible, brave, dynamic young lady. 

 Raquel: She studied French literature, right?

 Lina: Yes. So her bachelor's in Vancouver was French literature, and then she was doing her masters in Abu Dhabi Sorbonne, in social research. 

 Raquel: Social research. And she's an artist as well.

 Lina: I mean, she likes art, so she opened her talent agency because, you know, she wanted young people in that region to have opportunities, and yeah, she's really, really fond of art. 

 Raquel: Yeah. And she got married before she got arrested as well. 

 Lina: Yes, she got married to Fahad Al-Butairi, who's a famous comedian in Saudi Arabia. But you know, I have no idea what happened, so I'd rather not comment on this. 

 Raquel: Yes, of course. So… well thank you for sharing. It gives us a more full, a fuller picture of who Loujain really is. So when did it become apparent, to you as a family, that her campaign was becoming troublesome to the Saudi government? 

 Lina: Actually we've never expected anything. You know when the new Crown Prince came in power in 2015? He was placed as a reformer, saying that he will, you know, empower women, that he understands that Saudi Arabia had dark times and that he'll try to change everything. So we were hopeful.

 And we've never even thought that Loujain, you know, would get arrested under this regime that says they're praising women's rights. And then, you know, there was a first wave of arrests. There was the religious people and then there were the businessmen and then the journalists.

 And then all of a sudden there is a wave of arrests of activists and the defamation campaign saying they're, you know, spies, and it got so big that, you know, I even thought it was a joke at some point because, you know, we've never had this in Saudi Arabia, that they just target, basically illegally, like that, you see?

 So to answer your question, we've never thought that she would get harassed and targeted like this because even though she got arrested that first time, you know, in 2014, it was not that she was expecting it, but we could yeah, expect that she would get arrested and there was, it was not really a problem for her.

 But this time, really, the way they broke into the houses, the way they made a defamation campaign as she was being held in an unofficial prison being tortured. So, nobody thought that Saudi Arabia would be such a hell for thinkers and activists and people who just speak their mind.

 We thought Saudi Arabia would become, you know, more open and everything, but it's even worse than before because now it's a police state. There is no place for any citizen voice, any civil society voice, nothing. You know, some people get arrested for tweeting sometimes. So it's really becoming a police state and no one would, has, expected it to become like this.

 Raquel: What was that first arrest like? She was arrested, Loujain was arrested, in December 2014 for 73 days, and it was related to her campaigning on women's right to drive. So what was that first arrest like? 

 Lina: Actually this first arrest, so there are interviews of Loujain on Saudi television after she got released. And she said that it's a very good experience for her because, as I said, it's made her really realise that, you know, the problem is not only about driving, it's also about the whole male guardianship system.

 She really understood what women who come from families who are not supportive, or who have been abusing, or things like this, what they go through in Saudi Arabia. So for her, it opened her eyes on the reality of something in Saudi Arabia that she wasn't really aware of. So for her, it was a very good experience in that sense, and it gave her, you know… She was even more motivated after she got released to campaign for a broader cause. Because at that time, you know, she said that they treated her really well in that prison, not like this time. 

 Raquel: So what happens after that? 

 Lina: So after her prison of 2014? 

 Raquel: Yes. Yes. 

 Lina: Yeah, as I said, so she started campaigning for the male guardianship system and then she went to conferences et cetera. And as I said before, and then she got kidnapped when she came back from Geneva and then arrested again. 

 Raquel: So I may be wrong, but it sounds to me a little bit… because I'm looking at the fact that women had the right to drive in June 2018, but the male guardianship system remains in place, right? 

 Lina: So, yes, the male guardianship system yes, is still there, but there has been some changes to it. 

 Raquel: But could you… what kind of changes?

 Lina: So for example… but, you know, what has to be known is that Saudi Arabia, now, there are two Saudi Arabias. There is the image they want to give to the West, and there is the Saudi Arabia inside of Saudi Arabia. So how it is truly.

 So what media has been reporting is that the male guardianship system is almost over, that there has been very good changes, and they mostly talk about the fact that now women are allowed to order their passports and travel without the consent of their male guardian, which is true. But what the Western media was not saying at that time, when they were talking about this, you know, evolution or investment or, you know, this change, positive change, is that there is still another law that is called ‘uquq’ which means that if you disobey your male guardian, you can be imprisoned. 

 So what that means is that a male guardian who doesn't want his wife or daughter or, you know, whoever he has the male guardianship on, who doesn't want her to travel? He can call the police for disobedience. So women who can travel, actually, are only the ones who have, you know, supportive families and good male guardians.

 So this is something, you know, that a law that basically crashes, all the positive changes, because he can just stop her from living the good and positive changes. 

 Raquel: And it also only functions if you have a healthy relationship with your guardian.

 Lina: Exactly.

 Raquel: If you are in an abusive relationship or if you are in a controlling relationship, then it's not really freedom if your freedom depends on whether your guardian agrees. 

 Lina: Exactly. Yeah. 

 Raquel: Yes. So, okay, I understand. So, Loujain presented herself as a candidate in the local elections of 2015. Could you tell us a little bit about what inspired her to run for political office? 

 Lina: Yes. So Loujain, you know, the aim of Loujain presenting herself is not really being elected, it’s really to encourage Saudi women to present themselves if they feel like they could be leaders.

 Loujain was really only doing it, you know, as an example, and showing them, “look, women, you know, you don't have to be scared. We can all make it.” And it was really, you know, just a very symbolic move. And in an interview, she says also, it was to - how do you say this - to higher the representation of women presenting themselves to the local elections.

 Raquel: To increase the number of women. 

 Lina: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, to increase the number. 

 Raquel: No, it's fine. And then, what happened? She was not included in the ballot. Was that a procedural prohibition? 

 Lina: There is nothing really procedural, no. It was a very arbitrary decision. And actually after that she… wait, let me think.

 So yeah, her name was not added, and then she sued that decision, and actually the judge said that this was an illegal decision. But, you know, it was too late for her to present herself. So, you know, she just won basically this trial. 

 Raquel: To present herself for those elections, but maybe in the future she could be able to present herself for further elections. 

 Lina: Let's hope so. Yeah. 

 Raquel: Well, I'm trying to picture how the Saudi government went to, sort of, create her into such a threat, you know? So I'm wondering, it comes across as if she was getting a lot of traction, and if she was not allowed to be a candidate on that election, but the judge rule in her favour that she would be allowed, that she had to be allowed, then that means that in the future she could be a candidate again.

 Lina: But the thing is now, we are also… so since 2015, since MBS, since the new Crown Prince, it's really a different Saudi Arabia. So now we are in a police state and there's only, the decisions only come from him. So, you know, even if… and as he has decided that she should be in prison, I think there would be no way for her to have any, you know, political or even any important position in society.

 Because, you know, there are no counter powers anymore. Their decisions are only made by one man. And if, you know, she gets released and the government stays the same as it is today, I don't think it would be… you know, I would be very surprised if she would be allowed to have any position in the society. 

 Raquel: Society, yeah. And you were saying that Loujain has been placed in total isolations since April 2019. How did that decision came about? What was that? The so-called, the alleged reason for that?

 Lina: There is nothing at all. So really now, you know, even when my parents call the state security, when they call the prison, when they call the judge, when they call the court, when they call the Royal Court, nobody gives any explanation, whatsoever, on anything about Loujain. You know, even when she disappeared for months, they would just say “yeah it's the procedure,” you know, or they would just ignore.

 So really there is nothing legal. All the decisions are really impulsive, unexpected. So I cannot answer this question because we don't have any answer to that, and we wish we could have, you know, any contact with the Saudi authorities who would tell us, you know, why she would go in solitary confinement, why they stopped the calls, why they stopped the visits. But there is nothing at all.

 Raquel: Yes. So that was in April 2019, but in March of 2019, the month before, the Saudi Arabia prosecutor announced that they were going to charge her for undermining state security, there was a trial March 2019. And the Saudi Arabia public prosecutor said that it was because Loujain and others were undermining state security.

 Lina, thank you so much for speaking with us, at FiLiA. Is there something that we could do to support Loujain, to support your family?

 Lina: I think the most important thing is to make her unforgotten. So what the Saudi government wants is that she becomes silenced, becomes forgotten, and that, you know, nobody dares to ask for any other right in Saudi Arabia, and that's nobody dares to ask for her release.

 So the most important thing is that every time Saudi Arabia comes in a subject, every time, you know, there is contacts with any government with Saudi Arabia. Every time you see Saudi Arabia written on your Twitter feed or on your Facebook or anything, always remind them that all the changes that they're trying to make us believe are happening in Saudi Arabia, they're not true.

 They won't be believed until Loujain and the other activists are freed. Until then, we won't believe any of the, basically, propaganda, Saudi Arabia is trying to have in Western countries. And that, yes, we should ask for the release of Loujain and all the other activists who are the real reason behind the positive changes in Saudi Arabia.

 And we have just launched a website today which houses all the information on Loujain, and there's also a How to Help page. And I think people can go have a look. It's www.loujainalhathoul.org. 

 Raquel: Well, thank you very much, Lina Al-Hathloul, for speaking with us about your campaign, and also your sister campaigning, Loujain Al-Hathloul. Thank you very much.

 Lina: Yeah, thank you so much.