Raquel: Hello everyone. Welcome to the FiLiA Podcast. My name is Raquel Rosario-Sánchez, and I am the spokeswoman for FiLiA. Today we're speaking with Speak Up for Women, a non-partisan organisation in New Zealand that exists to protect and advance the rights and interests of women and girls, in law, in policy, and society, based on the shared material reality of the members of the female sex.

 They support respectful, evidence-based dialogue and freedom of speech. They support the rights of transgender people to live their lives free from violence and discrimination. Rights do not exist in isolation and a fair society balances the rights of all. Today we are speaking with Ro Edge and she is the New Zealand spokeswoman for Save Women’s Sports Australasia, and their campaign to protect women's sports.

 Ro is a women's rights advocate who comes from a sports-loving family, so she has a special interest in ensuring girls and women retain their pathway to achieving sporting excellence. Ro, how are you? 

 Ro: Good, thank you, Raquel. How are you going? 

 Raquel: I feel great. We have a 12-hour difference between both of us.

 Ro: We do! You've just woken up and I'm getting ready to go to bed. 

 Raquel: It's going to be interesting. So, the first questions that I have is, we're going to be speaking mainly about women's sports and the campaign that you have going on. But I wonder, how did you became involved in sports? How did you became passionate about this issue? 

 Ro: Well, for me, I come from a really sports-loving family. I've got a daughter who's currently on a college sporting scholarship in the US, and a niece who's hopefully going to be representing New Zealand at the Tokyo Olympics - if they ever happen, fingers crossed - so the growing impact of trans athletes on female sports became a really major concern for me.

 And this sort of started last year. I was listening to the radio while I was working and heard Annie O'Brien - who's our spokesperson for Speak Up for Women here in New Zealand - heard her speaking on the radio about gender self-ID, and I kind of, it just perked my interest and I sort of thought, “oh, I'll write that note down and have a listen to that or have a look at that later.”

 And so once I finished work, I started doing some Googling. And I guess the way I could best describe it is I, kind of, like, opened the door for a sneak peek, and then found it had blown off its hinges and I was in some kind of parallel universe with, you know, just understanding what was happening. 

 And just how it seemed that really important issues were just being totally disregarded by politicians intent on pushing through gender self-ID, regardless of the consequences to women's rights. So I joined Speak Up for Women and yeah, went along to their Feminism 2020 event and met lots of them, and they're just such an amazing crew.

 And then as things progressed, I've found myself running, well, we started off Save Women's Sport New Zealand, but just recently we have merged with our Australian sisters creating Save Women's Sport Australasia, cause they had eight of their national sporting organisations recently announce trans inclusion policies, would you believe without any consultation with female players, all women's groups.

 So they were in dire need of some help and we just, yeah, we thought, “we are so similar and we are fighting the same issues, so why not fight them together?” And it's proved really worthwhile and we're really enjoying working with them.

 Raquel: Yeah. I mean, thank you for sharing. It's an issue that is bringing together women from around the world because I think that until sports inclusion policies, inclusion policies in sports, I think that women, kind of, assumed that we had a stronger footing to stand on, and now we're realising we're actually stronger if we partner up.

 So, what was the reception to Speak Up for Women? What was - when you got involved in the group - what was the reception from the public? I am aware that at one point you printed a hundred, hundreds, of your posters, which were just feminist posters talking about women's rights, and the company that printed the posters got a deluge of misinformation, and they ended up withdrawing those posters. Tell us a little bit about that. 

 Ro: Oh, that was actually just before I joined Speak Up for Women, to be honest, Raquel, so I wasn't familiar with that. But with the Feminism 2020 event, I knew exactly what was going on there. They'd booked a venue at Massey University in Wellington, which is our capital city, and they'd booked it during a holiday period.

 But Massey University cancelled it based on health and safety grounds, because they had such a backlash from trans activists who didn't want Speak Up for Women being there, and felt it would, you know, be a danger to their health and safety, which was just complete madness.

 But we were so lucky in New Zealand, because we had a MP from our smallest party in Parliament - well, he was our smallest party, now he's actually our third biggest, after our election last night - but he booked one of the rooms at Parliament for Speak Up for Women to hold their Feminism 2020 event, which was just incredible.

 So it actually ended up giving the organisation way more publicity, and raising the profile of it, than if the activists had just let it go ahead. 

 Raquel: Thank you. The election that you had last night - so in essence, the Labour Party won, I think we're witnessing the news all around the world that the Labour Party won with a majority. What is their position on this issue, and what does it mean that the Labour Party is now with a comfortable majority in Parliament? 

 Ro: So the way New Zealand's government works is, we have an MMP system. So we have lots of different parties, and to get into Parliament, a party needs to either win 5% of the vote or win electorate seat. And so yeah, every, every election it's always really interesting and it means that there's a lot of strategic voting that happens.

 And so with our election yesterday, basically a lot of people saw that the Green Party, who used to be an environmental party, but now have really become a far-left, kind of, socialist, party, were going to get enough votes to be able to be re-elected, and if Labour didn't have the majority, then the Greens would have a lot of influence on the government.

 So a lot of people from the centre and centre right of our voting base voted for Labour, so that they could have the majority and govern alone. Because Labour and National, our two main parties, are actually very similar in many aspects, there's a lot that they agree on, way more they agree on than they disagree on, and so Labour secured the majority last night.

 What's going to be interesting is that Jacinda Ardern has committed to pushing through gender self-ID legislation, which is really disappointing, but we are hoping that – she’s said she's going to govern for the majority of the people - so that we are hoping if we raise enough awareness of this and we can push back enough, that we can stop this from going through. But it's going to be a challenge.

 We know we've got a challenge on our hands for the next three years, not just with this, but she's also wanting to implement hate speech legislation. And once again, that becomes a danger, because if you can't say biological fact without potentially being arrested or being fined, then, you know, you are just curtailing free speech, and the whole cancel culture. So yeah, it's going to be an interesting three years, I guess. 

 Raquel: What does this election result mean for your Save Women’s Sports campaign? Like, does that affect it, in any way?

 Ro: Not really. About as much as it does for Speak Up for Women. I mean, the gender self-ID thing is, you know, a big issue for sport as well, because if that legislation goes through, it will make it so much harder for us to fight on the sporting ground as well.

 I mean, it's already a challenge because we have, you know, there's such a big push from trans activists, for acceptance of diversity in organisations including sports across, you know, across business and sports. And so, yeah, if gender self-ID is implemented, that's just going to make their push even stronger. 

 Raquel: Would you mind explaining to us the arguments of your campaign, Save Women’s Sports? 

 Ro: So, Save Women’s Sports is all about keeping sport segregated by sex, not by gender identity, because we all know that the average biological male is bigger, stronger, and faster than the average biological female. And in fact, most men are bigger, stronger, and faster than females and some men are bigger, stronger, and faster than any female on the planet. And so it's really, really important, for sports to remain fair, and also safe for female athletes, that they are segregated by sex.

 You know, a decent and tolerant society understands that not everyone is going to be comfortable with the gender roles and expectations associated with their sex. And it should be a goal for us to accept diversity of gender expression and to support transgender people to live lives free from discrimination.

 But the trouble for sports, Raquel, is that it's created the situation of colliding rights. Because there's a question now of whether that person's self-ID imposes on another person's rights for fair competition. And in the situation of contact sports, safe competition, and all the evidence demonstrates there's no amount of testosterone reduction or surgery that can mitigate that increased risk of injury to female athletes, if they're competing against males in contact sports.

 And so this in turn has created issues in regards to insurance and legal culpability for sporting organisations. But what's really frightening right now is that so many national sporting bodies seem intent on ignoring all this evidence in favor of accommodating biological men in women's sports. It's, yeah, it just seems quite bizarre. 

 Raquel: Why do you think that is?

 Because I think, you ask someone on the streets, or any person, you speak with them about sports, and I think that people would understand that there's a need to segregate sports based on sex, and that is why that is the case. And I think that they get it. I mean, the sports issue, it seems to be the issue that most people seem to find agreement on.

 Why do you think that it is the sporting bodies, like the big organisations that are ignoring, or that are going against, both the scientific evidence and the consensus from the public?

 Ro: Well, I think part of that, is that very well-funded rainbow organisations, such as Pride and Sport Australia for instance, are driving the requirement for all organisations to be seen as being inclusive of diversity, and that includes sport.

 And look, everyone has the right to play sport, but no one's got the right to play any category they choose, cause otherwise sport’s meaningless, if there's no fair competition. It's why we've got the separate categories for disabled people, children, men, and women, but…

 This push by trans activists is combined with, I think there's a natural desire for us all, especially women, to be inclusive. It's just having unintended negative consequences for women and girls, who are now losing out on fair and meaningful competition at all levels of female sport.

 Secondly, I think there's an insistence to desegregate women's sports - and I know this is going to sound really contentious - but it's also partly about a smaller, really vocal group of entitled men, who are simply unwilling to give up anything for the decisions they make in life, no matter who they impact on.

 You know, we've got New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard as a really great example of this. Laurel had a career in weightlifting as a man called Gavin, where he scarcely even registered in the sport at international level. Laurel's now 42, and having a second career, because Laurel now identifies as a woman. And thanks to all the strength and power due to male biology, Laurel's already broken Commonwealth Games records, and won a silver medal at a World Champs.

 But we need to think beyond Hubbard. We should be thinking about the precedent that's being set here. Now what happens when you have ten, twenty, or even more transgender athletes wanting to compete against women? It essentially becomes a co-ed category. So men get to retain their category because, let's face it, due to biology, it's going to be incredibly challenging for a trans man to ever compete at the elite level of men's sport. But women have to share their category.

 Yeah, we talk a lot about empowering women, Raquel, but this doesn't empower women. If anything, it's taking the power away from us. It's actually robbing us of what is rightfully ours, and what we had to fight so damned hard for in the first place.

 I also wondered though, you know, when the International Olympic Committee revised their transgender eligibility criteria back in 2015, that they thought there'd be so few trans athletes that it wouldn't really matter too much. You know, it'll be a great way for them to be inclusive, but at a small cost. But every trans woman who qualifies takes an opportunity away from a woman, and that's grossly unfair whether the number's one, twenty, or 200.

And I also think this is the reason why so many national rugby unions recently have rejected the transgender eligibility guidelines World Rugby put out earlier this month, which actually bar trans woman from playing in the international women's game. I think there's, like, a number of rugby unions who just rejected them because they thought there'd be so few trans women playing that they decided protecting the health and safety of their female players simply wasn't worth the hassle and the blowback from activists, because as we know, that can be pretty intense.

 I mean, how else would you explain it? When rugby's biggest focus, for the past ten years or so, has been on health and safety? You know, they've changed the rules of the game to ensure they minimise a risk of injury as much as they possibly can, and yet they're choosing to totally ignore it here. Their female players must seriously be looking at these national rugby organisations saying, “if World Rugby think that professional players need protecting on the rugby field, why don't I as a community player?” 

 It just, yeah, beggars belief, to be honest.

 Raquel: Yes. Well, you explain it... Something that really stands out to me, is that once a male person breaks a record in a female category, essentially you're just creating the most unfair condition for all the other females who are competing, because they will never reach to that level due to biological factors.

 But it's like, even if you allow… even if the sporting international organisations analyse, “well, okay, there's going to be a very reduced number.” Yeah. But if that very – just, like, hypothetically - if that very reduced number of trans women in women's sports breaks a record, then you are already pushing the limit to a level that is unattainable for all females who will come after that person. And it's almost as if they haven't either thought that through, or they decided that words like ‘inclusivity’ and ‘diversity’ matter more. 

 Ro: Yeah, it seems that they do. They matter more than fairness. And you know, the problem with this inclusivity for trans women, it actually creates a problem, like, it excludes females. Because if females cannot attain those positions, if they're not going to be chosen for a team, a representative team, will be able to get on the podium, they might not compete.

 And we had a really good example of this in New Zealand, some years ago. We had a downhill mountain biking rider who was basically, I think she was number two in the world. And all of a sudden she had to compete against a trans girl who transitioned at the end of one year - so had been racing as a a male up until the end of one year, and just averagely never excelled particularly - and then transitioned and started the next year racing as a female. And she won the races by like over 30 seconds. And when it came to the downhill nationals, only five females turned up to compete because the rest of them thought, “what is the point?”

 So by including some biological males into female sport, you're actually excluding females. And the whole point of female sport is for females to have the opportunities, the same opportunities as men have had forever. But how hard and long did we have to fight for them? It's just, yeah, it just feels like it's being undone. And it's being undone because sporting bodies don't have the guts to stand up to the trans activists and to do what's right for females. It's, yeah. It's so frustrating. 

 Raquel: Yes. And you and I have spoken in the past about how wonderful sports can be, and how powerful and beautiful and all (of) what you get as a person from participating in sports. It’s such a tragedy that so many girls and women… and they are seeing like, well, actually the conditions…

 The whole point of sports is that this is fair, you can compete, and there is a chance that you could win. But if that is systematically being changed, so the conditions are unfair, no matter what you do, then that must be so demoralising as an athlete or as a woman interested in sports. Because essentially, what they're being told from these organisations is, “you're going to make all the effort in the world, but what we care about is not that you have a fair chance, it's that we can have some support on social media, or whatever.”

 Ro: Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's incredibly frustrating. And you know, we have talked about what sport does for young women and just, I saw it in my own daughter. You know, she had a learning disability, so she always struggled at school, and she was always quite shy and reserved, until she found sport and until she found something she was really good at, and just watching her grow as a person was so incredible. 

 And what sport has given her, the opportunities it's given her, you know, to be able to get a scholarship to a college in the States, and to have those experiences and to play at that level, has just been incredible. And I would hate to think that any girl lost out on that opportunity because a biological male with all of their biological advantages, which are immense, you know, could take a position. 

 And they might be an average athlete as a male, and they will excel as a female. Because as we know, the fastest woman's runner is no faster than the fastest 14-year-old boy. You know, there needs to be a reality check with sporting organisations.

 And you know, the one good thing that we have about the sports issue, Raquel, is that I do believe it's raising awareness of how ridiculous this argument is getting on so many levels. Because whether you are male or female, whether you are sporty or un-sporty, you get it. You get the inherent unfairness straight away. So it's a way that we can connect with the public, like through the sporting issue, and hopefully raise awareness of the other issues that come on from this, like having male bodies in women's changing rooms and girls changing rooms, you know, in our safe spaces.

 So yeah, I think sports is a good one to connect, but it just… I can't believe that it has got so ridiculous, that we have the National Rugby Unions of England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, rejecting World Rugby's Trans Eligibility Guidelines, which were so well researched, you know, they did it incredibly well, out of any sporting organisation.

 And really now they've shown the IOC up, the International Olympic Committee up, for basing their 2015 rules on really misguided research, you know. It didn't take much for a trans athlete to turn up and present some evidence and they changed the rules, but to get them to change back now and to listen to what female athletes and scientists and everybody around the world is telling them seems to be a mountain to climb. Why is that? 

 Raquel: Could you tell us a little bit more about that process in the IOC, and how they decided in 2015 to change the rules to adopt the inclusion of males into female categories? 

 Ro: So there was a transgender athlete, Joanna, I'm sorry, I can't remember the last name, but she was on the IOC, so she was already inside their, you know, their committee. 

 And she presented some evidence - I think there was, like, about eight or nine transgender athletes that she'd followed, but it was over like a 20-year period, I think, as well - to try and show that taking testosterone blockers reduced their male performance level where they competed just like women, you know, at a similar level.

 And it was not peer reviewed, at all, the evidence. They didn't take into account the fact that over those years, their performance was naturally going to decline with age anyway. They weren't all elite athletes either, from what I understand. It was really, really average research from everything that I've read. 

 Raquel: It didn't take age into account? But that's such a crucial factor in sports. 

 Ro: Yeah, it is, isn't it? But this is it, why does it take a trans woman to provide some really substandard evidence to the IOC, and they take it on board and they change the rules straight away, to accommodate biological men in women's sports.

 But meanwhile, women have been fighting since then to get this overturned, and here we are, five years later. And I know now, the IOC, they have undertaken a whole lot of research of their own that - I think they've had about six people working on this, for quite some time - and I'm sure they must have finished their whole consultation and research now, but they haven't released it.

 And that may be because, you know, I do understand they've got a lot to deal with at the moment, through the Olympics not going ahead this year and being pushed back to next year, hopefully - you know, it's still not guaranteed it's going to go through.

 It's meant that sporting competitions around the world, due to Covid, haven't been happening, so drug testing hasn't been happening. And so how do they ensure they're even going to have a clean Olympics next year when they haven't got this continual drug testing happening with athletes throughout this year?

 So they’ve got some challenges that they've got to meet, but they shouldn't keep side-lining this transgender eligibility criteria issue, because it is massive. It's massive to women and its having an impact on athletes all around the world. 

 Raquel: Well, thank you for sharing that. That sentence was so mind blowing because when people think about the International Olympic Committee, you think sporting excellence, and research, and you think that things are done in such a high quality level, but to think that some evidence that was not peer reviewed, and that did not take age into account - when age is such a fundamental factor to your performance as an athlete - that really blows my mind.

 And I think you make an excellent point that allegedly it took this very small number of trans advocates to change an international policy… All women and girls looking up to this competition. But now look at all the efforts that you have to make to even just get these people’s attention in your campaign. 

 Ro: Yeah, but the really damaging part of it, Raquel, is that every other sporting association and body around the world has followed the IOCs guidance. World Rugby, I have to commend them, they are the first sporting organisation that has come out against them and said, “we don't agree. We've done the research. It isn't right.”

 And they are the first ones to stand up against them. So they need to be commended for that. But their national rugby unions around the world do not. I'm absolutely appalled and I'm sure a part of it is, they just don't want the pushback and the aggro from the activists.

 If they're going to be completely honest with themselves, if they had looked at the evidence… like I know the New Zealand Rugby Union, they've rejected it for now and they're doing their own consultation process. I'm not sure how that's going to look and who they're going to consult with. But when they were looking at the draft policy World Rugby put out, they actually asked their elite female rugby players, whether they thought New Zealand Rugby Union should adopt them or not, and it was a resounding yes.

 They wanted New Zealand Rugby Union to adopt World Rugby's guidelines, but New Zealand Rugby Union didn't. They felt that there wasn't enough research and that they didn't understand the research and that more needed to be done. But you know, they're wanting to develop an inclusion policy by the beginning of our community rugby season next year, which will probably start March, April.

 That's not a lot of time to do any research, and the consultation is going to be really quick. So I'm actually really concerned that we are going to end up with the same issue that Australia has, with eight sporting bodies announcing trans inclusion policies and another fourteen apparently ready to follow suit, with zero consultation with the people that are in fact actually impacted by this, the female players.

 Raquel: Yes. And the flip side, there's two sides to what you just mentioned. They don't want to upset the trans activists. The flip side of that is they have no problem upsetting the women who are voicing their opinions on this matter. And that is so disheartening.

 So tell me a little bit about your Australasia campaign. What has been the response so far? 

 Ro: Well, yeah, so, well we started Save Women’s Sport earlier this year, probably about six or seven months ago, and what we did then is we got in touch with a whole lot of retired elite athletes. We didn't want to contact anyone that was actually an existing athlete and put them in a difficult position.

 And so we contacted a whole lot of retired athletes, asked if any of them would be able to, would be willing to speak up. We only had one, but Lorraine Moller is, like, an absolute legend in New Zealand and we are so grateful. And she fought for equality in women's sports back in the eighties. She was a marathon runner.

 You know, the marathon at the Olympics, for women, was only introduced in 1984, from memory. So Lorraine has fought this battle before. And she said to me that when she first saw Laurel Hubbard at the Commonwealth Game, she thought, “oh my gosh, this is so ridiculous. Everyone is going to see how ridiculous this is and it will just stop.”

 But she's realised it's actually not stopped, and it's got a hell of a lot worse, and she has to speak up. She can't sit back and just let it happen anymore. So she's… I'm actually doing a webinar with her, with Save Women's Sport in the USA this week, which will be really lovely. But yeah, so we've contacted a whole lot of sporting organisations as well, and athletes.

 And then we merged with Australia and created Save Women's Sport Australasia. A few weeks ago, we've got more information going out, and some suggested transgender guidelines sporting bodies might consider adopting, just to help them with guiding with their own policy. So we've got a big campaign that is set to get going with that too.

 Oh, there's a lot, a lot going on actually, but we've built a Facebook page as well, and we've already got, within just over a week and a half, over 500 followers, so that's gaining traction as well. 

 Raquel: Sorry, what's the handle? 

 Ro: It's ‘Save Women's Sport Australasia’.

 And we've had a lot of people sign up for our database, on our website as well, to get newsletters from us too. So, yeah, there's just… it’s about raising awareness of the issue and educating the public on why it's important, and why it's so unfair, everything that's happening.

 But also, you know, educating all the sporting associations about the potential issues of fairness and safety, to make sure that they're all equipped with the research and the information, before they're potentially contacted by Sport New Zealand, who are going to be undertaking this big consultation process. So they actually have the information in hand, just in case they're not given it.

 Because I have a real trust issue with how this consultation is going to work after seeing what happened in Australia. I think we're all a little bit apprehensive of where it's going to end up. 

 Raquel: But you keep fighting, which is very commendable. So, I wonder if we could spend a couple of minutes talking about, sort of, the arrival of some political leaders, finally at the scene, speaking openly about this issue. And I think the latest person that we have seen speaking in defense of women's sports is the youngest female senator in Australia, whose name is Claire Chandler.

 She's 30 years old, and she gave a very famous speech in their Congress chambers, speaking about the importance of sex-based rights. And as a result she received complaints, a complaint by trans activists, and she was summoned to an anti-discrimination - what is it? Is it a committee?

 Ro: … in front of them and basically she said she was appalled by it, and she spoke up about that too. But she was going to go along, but they wanted to keep it private. And she said, “well, I'm sorry. I am not going to keep this process private. If you are going to have the process of shutting down free speech, it needs to be a public process so everyone can see literally how absurd this whole process is.”

 I mean, one, one complaint, about what she said in Parliament, a speech that she gave in Parliament and she's hauled in front of this discrimination committee. It just, it, yeah, it was unbelievable. And interestingly, Raquel, as soon as she refused to have the process private, the complaint was pulled.

 Raquel: Interesting. Because they would have to, like, they would have to actually say what is in the complaint, right? 

 Ro: Yeah. And they would have to justify their position in public where they just wanted to… it was a way of silencing women from speaking up. And, you know, it's had the chilling effect now that people are nervous about speaking up, because they may get a complaint against them.

 And if they're not Senator Claire Chandler who, you know, has the ability to speak up and for her voice to be heard, if they're just, you know, a sports woman from Tasmania who doesn't agree with it and says something and has a complaint against her, she could be hauled in front of there too. But she might not have the resources or the power to know how to deal with that.

 So it has the chilling effect of silencing women, which is absolutely appalling. But Senator Claire Chandler is determined that it's not going to, and she is an absolutely legend. I so wish we could clone her. We need one of her… she's, yeah, she's just incredible and she's definitely raising awareness of the issue in Australia, which is fantastic. 

 Raquel: And she's doing her job, you know, the job of a senator. 

 Ro: Yeah, she is. 

 Raquel: You look at policy and ask questions. Even if people don't like it, even if people feel uncomfortable, it doesn't matter. If you are elected as a representative for the people, that is your job. That's why they're paying you. So it is bizarre that…

 I mean, the thing that pops out in my head is like, how many questionable things do men say in Congress around the world every single day? You know, it's like, all of them, probably, have things that someone or another person might find objectionable. It is this one woman speaking up for women's sex-based rights that immediately gets the complaint.

 Ro: Yeah, and I guess that's something that we are really nervous about too with the proposed hate speech legislation in New Zealand, that we could all end up in prison as well, you know? If it comes to that point where, you know, speaking against somebody's gender identity is hate speech, it's a very, very slippery slope, and it's not one that I want to see our country go down.

 Free speech is so incredibly important. Even if people say things that you don't agree with, you know, I always respect their right to say it, as long as it's not threatening violence or death. 

 Raquel: Yeah, it's a little bit like, it's a blow from two different sides, you know, because on the one hand, if you legislate for gender identity, but then you make it a hate crime to question gender identity, then how are you supposed to defend sex-based rights? Yes, it feels very much like an attempt to silence people.

 In any case, I was wondering if we could share a quote from Claire Chandler, because I think that she's very eloquent on this issue. So she said:

“Being summoned by a quasi-judicial body to appear and explain why I say that males shouldn't be in female changing rooms or in female sporting competitions is an indictment on the state of free speech in this country. It is deeply concerning that, in a democracy, instead of using free speech to respond and perhaps even campaign against me in an election, some people are seeking to use the law to silence me and every Tasmanian who shares my concerns.”

 And this is a senator, as you say, with power, with political power, with maybe class privilege, yet it is not allowed. She's not allowed to state things. If she states, there's going to be a consequence. And the concerning thing is, well, what about every woman? 

 Ro: Yeah. Yep. That's a really concerning thing. The women that don't have the power of voice that Claire has. And she's so aware of that. 

 Raquel: So, do you mind if I ask you, what has been the response to your campaigning, to you personally, Ro? What has been the reception that you have had from people in your circle, but also, like, members of the public?

 Ro: Well, I'm not a very public figure, to be honest Raquel. Most people are probably totally unaware. In my circle, people support me, but quietly. Like, I post quite a bit on social media about it, and it's interesting because it gets very little interaction, but quietly people will tell me that they support what I'm doing and, you know, really appreciate what I'm doing, but they won't verbalise it or they won't be public with it.

 And which, you know, I just think that is such a shame. It's this whole cancel culture that we've created, where everybody is scared of saying the wrong thing, so they just don't speak up. And I think that's such a shame. But you know, I think most people do support the cause. 

 You know, I know Claire has said that in Australia, she's received very little pushback from activists. The majority of feedback she gets is hugely positive. People agree with what she's saying, and I'm sure that that's the same here too, but it's just having the strength, the voice to speak up about what you believe in. You know, to not be scared of being called a TERF because, you know, we all get called those.

 And we did laugh, because the other day on the radio, there was a - on our national radio program - there was a trans activist on there, and basically saying that we are all, like, Speak Up for Women, are basically a group of right-wing religious zealots. You know, I'm probably the most right-wing person in there and I would call myself centre right, but definitely not that right. And so most of the women in Speak Up for Women are from the left side of politics and they seem to be so much more brave in speaking out. I have so much respect for them because of that. So, yeah…

 But, you know, there's been a little bit of pushback. I have had my business threatened, but, you know, it’s not important, I've got a very understanding business partner, so it's all good. Yeah. And most of my business is done internationally and not in New Zealand, so there's not a lot they can do, really. 

 Raquel: Yeah. Well that's wonderful. I think you make a really interesting point that it’s like, regardless of political beliefs, you know, the impact of… sex-based rights affects all women. I absolutely understand.

 And the position of a lot of women in this movement, who are very adamant that feminism, or that women's rights is a matter exclusively of the left, and I sympathise to a point. But then if you think about it, like, the women in shelter, or the women in prison, or the women in sports, they might be conservatives and their rights are being threatened as well. So I always value and appreciate campaigns that are campaigning for all women because at the core, we all share our sex.

 Ro: Exactly. Exactly. And this is an issue that affects us whether we're from the left or from the right or from the centre. This is an issue that we should all be fighting for together. And I don't think politics matters at all with it. I think it's just too important and we need to take the politics out of it.

 And I think it's always too easy to try and condemn an organisation, like this trans activist did on the radio, by saying that they're far right. You know, everybody's called far right now, if the left don't agree with them, or, you know, if the trans activists don't agree with them, it's almost like there's something really bad about being on the right side of politics rather than the left. And so, and they get pushed to the far right and I just, it's something that actually always really disappoints me because it's labelling people as something that they're not. 

 You know, most people actually will agree on the same things, you know, like whether you're from the left or the right. We all want the best for people. We all want the same things, but we just have different ways of maybe getting there. But it doesn't make people right or wrong, it's just a different... You know, they just have different pathways or different thinking on the best way to achieve a goal. But I think on the sports issue and on the gender self-ID and the whole trans inclusion issues, I think we are all pretty much on the same page.

 Raquel: Yes. And it is not a crime to be a conservative.

 Ro: No, no. I don't think it is. 

 Raquel: …in this debate. Sometimes people forget, you know. I was having a conversation with my dad yesterday and we were talking about an article and he mentioned to me, like, “Raquel, not everything that comes from the left is good and not everything that comes from the right is bad.” And I wholeheartedly agree.

 And I think that - I mean, I'm sorry this is your podcast - but I think that one of the reasons why we have gotten to such disheartening point is because you stop seeing the humanity of the other side, you know? And we are put in a position as women of seeing what happens when people completely disregard what is fair, what is just, what is equitable for us, you know?

 So I think that I always hope that in our practices, we don't perpetuate that dynamic of vilifying, quote unquote ‘the others’ of the other side of the political spectrum that we find ourselves on... 

 You are obviously very, very passionate about this, but tell me a little bit about what you see as the importance of sports for women and girls in particular.

 Ro: Oh, I think it builds self-esteem and self-confidence, and it actually, it teaches you resilience as well, because you have so many ups and downs for sports. You know, you can be going really well for a while, and then you might get an injury and you miss out on a team, or something happens and, you know, and that resilience to actually pull yourself back up and to work through whatever the issues are and to try and achieve the best, it makes women incredibly strong.

 And you notice that at high levels, you know, women that are at high levels of business are quite often really good sports women as well, because they have that drive and that determination and that resilience to just keep on going. So it just, it does so much for women, so many benefits.

 Raquel: Yes. What do you think, at the core of this issue, you have obviously – you’re a campaigner on women's sports, so you have obviously thought this through quite a lot. Why do you think that there is such an insistence on desegregating sports? 

 Ro: Oh, it's frustrating. I think one of the biggest issues we actually have is our lack of acceptance of the diversity of our own sex. And I'm going to especially pin this on men. You know, they took so long to accept homosexuality within men's sport, and I think that this is a bit of an issue now with transgender women.

 You know, American Samoa and Samoans, they have a tradition where trans are part of their families, have been accepted for generations and generations. And there was an American Samoan football player, a trans woman football player who played in, she was the first trans woman football player to play in a men's FIFA World Cup Quarterfinal. And for American Samoans, because trans women have been accepted as part of their culture forever, it was no big deal. She was celebrated with, you know, her beautiful hair and makeup on the field, and it wasn't an issue.

 Unfortunately, for too many men's sports, they are just totally unaccepting of the diversity of their sex. Well, men are in general. And so I think this has actually created a push of men, of trans women, into women's sports. It's much easier to make it our problem than for men to deal with their issue, and that might be controversial, but I think that that's a big, big part of the problem. 

 Raquel: Sorry, can you expand on that? I think that's really fascinating. 

 Ro: Yeah. Well, yeah. Men are not accepting of the diversity of their sex. You know, there was a television program on recently here in New Zealand, and it was a locally made production, and it was on two schools’ rugby teams. And there was a homosexual boy at the school, and he got tied up to the goalpost by a whole lot of other boys, because he was homosexual. And I was really shocked when I watched that program and I said to my kids who are, you know, 18 and 20, “surely that isn't an issue anymore?”

 And they said, “Mum, it totally is.” In fact, homosexuality is so not cool with the younger generation, where trans is, and it's why we are seeing in schools this – well, with young people - this huge, huge increase in the number of kids identifying as trans, when most of them were probably, if they were left just to grow into the people that they are, currently, you know, they would probably grow up to be homosexual or lesbian.

 So, yeah, I think that a big part of the problem is that society hasn't worked out how to accept the diversity of our sex. Instead, we are trying to make people conform to old gender stereotypes so that they can feel accepted, but it's totally the wrong way around. We should be allowing people to be who they are, express who they are, and accept who they are. And I think it's a really sad indictment on us that we don't seem capable of doing that, still, after all this time. 

 Raquel: Yes. Well, that was very, very beautifully put, thank you for that. Do you have hope for the future in regards to this issue? Do you see the tide turning or not?

 Ro: I hope so. Yeah. No, I hope so. I think World Rugby's decision was the start of that, because the research can't be ignored. And even though the national rugby unions have decided to ignore it, when a woman, one of their female players, has a neck injury or a concussion and decides - because you know, she was tackled by a biological male on the field - and decides that actually that's not on, and she should have been protected because World Rugby has shown through research that she was put in danger, she will take one of them to court.

 I just hope that it doesn't take a woman to break her neck on the rugby field for them all to wake up. But I have a feeling, unfortunately, that that is probably what is going to happen. So I hope it's only one broken neck and not more.

 But yeah, I think the tide will turn then, when it's shown up for being as unsafe and unfair as it is. But maybe it needs to be more in our faces before that happens, Raquel, before people actually, you know, everybody says, “no, enough is enough,” and not just the few of us that are brave enough to speak up. 

 Raquel: Yes, from FiLiA, we recently interviewed both Sharron Davies in the UK and Linda Blade in Canada, and they also mentioned that unfortunately they think that it's going to take watching male people in podiums that were designed for female athletes before people can actually (get) to the point of outrage in which the policies are changed.

 But that is such a tragedy because, a point that was very salient to me is that as an athlete, you have a very short span, relatively for like your whole life, a short span of how long you can be at your prime as an athlete. So there are so many athletes, female athletes, that are competing under these unfair conditions. So their chance is going to go by before the rules are changed.

 You know, and I think it was Linda Blade who made the point that the girls, the little girls right now, they are hopefully going to have a fair chance in the future. But at the moment, imagine being an athlete right now at your prime, and knowing that you're competing in a field that is designed to not be fair to you. That must be so heart-breaking.

 Ro: Yeah. Look, I have so much respect for three incredible young women, in Connecticut, in the States. So Selena Soule, Alanna Smith, and I think it's Chelsea Mitchell, they've got a lawsuit suing their state athletic association in the federal court, for allowing males to compete in the girls’ category, because it actually violates Title IX. So, are you familiar with Title IX?

 Raquel: Yes, yes, but can you…

 Ro: Yeah, so Title IX was passed in the early seventies in the States, and what it did is, it changed the life of many young sports women, because it provided a pathway for them and guaranteed them equal opportunities in sports, on the basis of sex. So it meant that they had just as much opportunity of getting a sporting scholarship as a male did.

 It was huge and it opened up so many opportunities, and I think Linda was one of those who received that opportunity by getting one of those first sporting scholarships. So it’s going to be interesting. Time will tell whether the Supreme Court there will hold up the true intent of Title IX.

 But in the meantime, over there, two males have taken fifteen Women's State Championship titles, which back in 2016 were held by nine different Connecticut girls. They've also taken more than 85 opportunities to participate at the higher-level competitions from female track athletes.

 So, yeah, what's really disappointing to me is that the Democratic Party in the States, too, seems to believe that boys should be able to compete in girls sports. And I saw a tweet by Joe Biden just a couple of days ago saying that he's going to change the law to, you know, make sure that trans kids have equity, you know, basically that they'll be able to use the changing rooms they're most comfortable with, play in the sports teams that they want to... So I think it's a real danger.

 And I don't think he understands. I honestly don't. It's a bit like our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern. I don't think she and Joe Biden have honestly thought through the ramifications of the policies they want to push through. And hopefully, we can help educate them and stop it. But yeah, it's going to be a challenge, in so many places around the world. 

 Raquel: Yes. What is next for Save Women’s Sports Australasia? What's next for your campaign? 

 Ro: So we've kind of got two prongs for it. For our Australian sisters, obviously, because these sports have already announced their trans inclusion guidelines, they're looking at legally what recourse they can have. Because there are different things within the Human Rights Act that Australia has signed up to, and they believe there's a breach within that. And the same would go for New Zealand too, but for Australia, they're almost going to have to try to wind it back, a bit like what we have trying to do with the IOC.

 Whereas with New Zealand because most sports haven't developed trans inclusion policies yet, but we know that they're in the process of, our focus is on educating and trying to make sure that we keep sports segregated by sex, so that we keep it fair and safe for our female athletes. So it's kind of different for both of us, but at the same time, we are fighting a really similar battle.

 Raquel: Yes. Well, thank you. So, I have a question, and I think this is our final question.

 You spoke about your love of sports, and your daughter's love of sports. What would you say to a… maybe 16-year-old or a 13-year-old who is very passionate about sports, who's very keen on sports, but who is witnessing what is happening to female sports around the world, and she feels disheartened. What would you say to her about this issue?

 Ro: I'd say, “Don't give up on your sport and your dreams. There are women all around the world fighting for your right to be able to compete against a fair playing field in sports. So keep striving for excellence, and if you find your pathway blocked by gross unfairness, then try to be brave and speak up, or find someone that will speak up for you.

 Get in touch with one of the Save Women's Sport organisations around the world. It doesn't matter if we are not in the same country as you, we will do our best to help fight for your fairness and safety. But yeah, keep the faith. And sport is just so good for you on so many levels. And yeah, we're all fighting the battle for you to be able to achieve the most that you can achieve in a fair competition. And we will get there. It just might take a little bit of time.”

 Raquel: Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything that you would like to say to our FiLiA audience? 

 Ro: Oh gosh, I'm not sure… look, follow us on Facebook, Save Women's Sport Australasia, and you can sign up to our website as well, which is savewomenssport.com and you know, there's so many amazing organisations around the world.

 We're so lucky to be part of global groups of women, people, working to save women’s sports. Whether it's Fair Play For Women in the UK to Save Women's Sport in the US, there is some amazing women. Yeah, this is the one thing that I have loved the most about being involved in this, is it's connecting with so many incredible women around the world, just like you, Raquel.

 Like, I've followed your battle against your university, and I just can't believe what they've put you through, but I have so much admiration for the strength you have, to, you know, continue your fight, and I'm sure that you will win at the end of it. But, you know, it's just, I think this is one of the amazing things about being involved in a woman's campaign, is just all the incredible people that we meet and connect with. It's amazing. 

 Raquel: Thank you so much, Ro, and I do agree you meet so many wonderful, courageous people who are fighting on issues that… I mean, we're human beings and none of us have the energy or the time to dedicate ourselves to every single one of those issues. So it always makes me happy to know, “no, there's women fighting for women's sports and I can do my bit here and I can do my bit here.” But together we, you know, are stronger.

 So thank you so, so much, Ro Edge from Save Women’s Sports Australasia and Speak Up for Women in New Zealand for joining us for this podcast. At FiLiA we are committed to the topic of highlighting the importance of women's sports, so we will continue doing podcasts on female sports. Thank you for joining us, and thank you Ro. 

 Ro: Yeah, thank you for having me, Raquel. It's lovely chatting.