Luba: Hello. Today I will talk to Valerie Tender. Valerie is a prostitution survivor, artist, and activist. She lives in Montreal, Quebec, with her lovely cats. How many cats do you have, Valerie?

 Valerie: I have four cats. That's the city's maximum, per apartment.

 Luba: What's their names? One Gregory and… 

 Valerie: I have Gregory, I have Pepe, Lily, and Richard. 

 Luba: Oh, wonderful. So, first of all, I would love to hear a little bit about you. How you got into the sex trade, what types of sex trade you were involved, how you managed to get out of there - what does your life look today?

 Valerie: So I entered the sex industry when I did my first client at 16 years old, then I was in prostitution full-time during my whole year of 17-year-old, and I quit just before I turned 18. After that I remain in strip clubs, which were legal, and I danced until I was 23 years old. So in total, it's six years in the sex industry, and prostitution, I did anything from the street to high class, to all the different niche I have experienced. 

 Which now, you know, really, I can say is why I think it's really just gradients of sordid. Because honestly, whether you're doing clients in satin sheets or in a car, at the end of the day, there's still unwanted penetration in your body. So during the time that I was in the industry, I didn't have access to all of this reasoning. It came after.

 I exited the industry at 23. I had never had a job, never had a resume or a job interview or anything, so I felt really outside of society. I had community agencies that offered me free counseling and they also helped me to finish high school. After I finished high school at 23 years old, I went straight to university, because that community agency had made an arrangement with a university in Montreal to allow adult mature students to attend, and so I got a bursary.

 I decided to study ecology, so I went straight into science. And usually there's college that prepares you for university here in Quebec, and I guess, like, I hit, like, hardcore, like animal biology, plant biology, meanwhile, I had not had, like, I was not computer literate. I had not learned how to turn in a paper with the proper cover page and bibliography and all these things that you learn in college.

 I skipped, I went straight to university. So my first semester was really a big learning curve, but I pulled through, and, you know, I needed to prove myself that I was smart because I had used the physical and the charm and this stupid game for so long that I really had to prove myself, my own worth, and what I was capable.

 So your other questions from that series were also, like, how I got out. So really how I got out is: for prostitution - I mean by that, like literally sexual acts like penetration and blowjobs - I stopped that at 17, because at the time it was still illegal. It was not legal, so we were criminalised in Canada, this is back in 1998, basically, so we were criminalised.

 So I had just gotten busted by the police as a minor, and I knew that if I continued, then next time I was getting busted, I would have a criminal record. And I didn't want prostitution to be something that follows me forever, so, you know, that's… 

 Also, there was a time when, there was a specific event, where someone in my real life, who did not know that I was in the sex industry, because I compartmentalised my lives very much, so someone that did not know that I did that on the side, and who knew me by my real name and everything, offered me sex for money. And that was really earth-shattering for me. I was insulted. I was offended. I couldn't believe he was asking me that.

 And we had established some sort of trust and friendship, where it was just a giant, like, “what the fuck,” to be asked that. And so it did kind of a dissociative effect, I felt like I suddenly floated over my body. Which exactly happened when I got busted by the police too. I felt like I exited my body and was floating above looking at this scene and realising like, “okay,” like, “this is it.”

 Like you are realising that - you cannot put into words yet - but clearly you're doing something that harms you, and you're understanding that this is a dangerous life. Like the danger of it was getting at me more and more. Also, during my time in the strip clubs, I experienced being in a shootout. There was gang tensions, mafia tensions.

 I saw drug deal exchanges. I saw guns, and all these things that make you realise like, “wow, how did I become so numb that I'm not realising the danger I put myself in, every night pretty much?” So that's… I got out by steps, so I stopped prostitution, but I kept being a stripper for many years after because I knew nothing else.

 Those were the code that was used to navigating, that was the reality I felt - even though it was hell - I felt comfortable in because I understood it. I understood the dynamic, how it works. I felt, kind of, on top of my game. Because I didn't do drugs all the time I was in the industry, I was sober, it gave me a feeling that I was more in control.

 And I feared drugs. I realised that the girls who are dependent on drugs are also often dependent on the industry and have pimps and drug dealers that manipulate them. So me, I had a very, very dissociated prostitution. I would just punch out of my life, go into that, come back home, have a crazy shower ritual where I remove all the germs and I visualise all this dirty energy is leaving me with, going down the drain with the water…

 So, I was very, very dissociated. And as soon as I would step out of the shower, be completely clean, then I would feel like, “okay, I'm back to me now.” But there comes a time where all these rituals you have don't work anymore, and at some point it catches up with you. For me, I would say, like, the last two years that I was in strip club, I knew I had to get out. I just really had so much fear, so much feeling of inferiority.

 On one hand I knew I was smart and capable, but, like, it was like a vague theory. And if I'm capable within the context I'm in, so, “yeah, sure, clients at the strip club pay me to talk and they think I'm smart.” Okay. But can you take that out? And would that still work in the real world, with the expectation of the real world and having bosses and working in teams? And would they judge me if they find out? So I had many years of just juggling shame and lack of confidence. And over time-

 Luba: If I can ask, do you do think now it was an irrational fear? Because I speak to many, many women, many fellow survivors, and many people, many women say, why did they stay in the sex trade? Because they felt incapable, maybe, some felt very, very low self-efficacy, but it wasn't rational. It was something entirely psychological. So those things, your fear was rational? Or probably you could find another job, but it is like some psychological-

 Valerie: No, I did not think I could find a job. I didn't. Because I had nothing on my resume and I didn't even have the confidence to shake a boss's hand and pass an interview. Like everything was absolutely scary to me.

 Luba: So still psychological. 

Valerie: Yeah, but when you also - the society is very hard. Like, so here's an example. First time I went to welfare office to get government help so I could escape prostitution and have an income. I was honest. The lady asked me - cause I had, like, again, I've never done income tax, I'm completely out of society, I only have Medicare and that's it, everything else, I'm out of the loop. So I go to the government agency, never done income tax, I'm not collecting the, whatever, I should be getting as well, cause I'm kind of out of the system.

And then I tell her, she asked me, “how have you been supporting yourself the last few years?” I said, “I was in the sex industry, and I'm now being followed by a community agency, I get counselling, and I really need to get out cause this is alienating to me. I can't take it anymore. The clients, for me, it's violence.” So I explained her that and she literally told me, “well what tells me that you're not just going to keep continuing doing clients on the side if we give you welfare?”

 So women experience such hardship when they try to get out and get help, and if they have big holes on their resume and they lack the confidence to justify them… So yes, it is psychological, but it's also, like, you have been out of the loop for years. And for me, because I started as a minor, I didn't have like summer jobs or anything that makes you slowly ready to go to work. So I had zero experience of work.

 Plus I perceive bosses as clients. They are men with power. And I feared that the sex industry, even though I was getting out of it, would, like, slip into my normal life by having unwanted requests. And what if they find out? So they're irrational fear, but they're also, if you have not proven yourself that you have other value, that you can do something else and be confident, then you just really don't know how. So it becomes an actual problem, even if it's locked in your mind. It is a real problem.

 You basically don't know how to carry yourself in society, cause you start from the premise, “what if people knew where I come from?” And so I carried that shame for years. There came a point where eventually I refused that shame and I realised that the shame has to switch side. It needs to be put on the men who buy us, the men who contrive us with money to do these things.

 Luba: We're going to talk about them a little bit later, cause I wanted to mention all this. 

 Valerie: You also asked me how my life was today. So if I summarise, I've been out of prostitution for 20 years, so I have entirely new group of friends and new interests, like, the fabric of my life today has very little to do with where I come from, but it does in what I do with my time. So I use my time to be a militant, to be out there trying to explain this, to do the pedagogy of abolitionism, and give testimonies in schools as much as I can, and I get called into the media.

 There are few survivor who will go into the media with their full identity, their face, and their name. So I do get a bunch of requests and I'm always glad to - well, again, you need to filter who you give interviews to, because most of the time… now I'm at a point, to be honest, I've done so many interviews that I feel like I am giving them something that they need. So I put my conditions on front.

 I tell them, “if you're going to switch the words that I use to describe myself, when I describe myself as a survivor of prostitution, if you change that for sex work, we're not doing this interview and it's not happening.” I'm now really adamant that they need to respect what I'm bringing.

 Luba: This is important to you, right? 

 Valerie: Yeah, they do that all the time.

 Luba: I don't like the sex worker term use. And why do you think this term is so detrimental that you condition your interviews on not using this? So why it is so important to you?

 Valerie: They always use it as a headline. So now I don't even do interview unless they agree to use the words I'm giving them and to not change the words. And I explain them why this is so important.

 I explained to the media, “you have the power to shape people's thoughts and the ideas that they have access to. So when you tell them this is sex work, you're saying that this is sex. When I would debate that it is not, because sex is something that happens between two people, out of pleasure, out of lust and desire. This is not sex. And furthermore, this is not work.”

 I've gone through doing the extensive exercise of trying to see how you can apply the norms of the working code - I don't know how to translate, “les norms du travaille” in French, like, so “the work code,” I guess, with all the rules that need to be followed for security. Labour law. Exactly. Sorry, I'm French.

 So I went through the exercise of trying to see how labour law could fit over the sex industry, and other survivors have done that exercise as well, and researchers. And it cannot fit. Because if you accept that, in every other profession, you need to be physically protected, not be in contact with body fluid - in any other employment, the actions of sex industry would be considered sexual harassment.

 So just an example, if you're working in a strip club or a massage parlour, your job is to be sexually available, is to be there, to be on display, to make a line-up, so that the men choose you. This is your job. In any other profession, this would be considered sexual harassment.

 So you’re in the dressing room, your stomach hurts, you feel terrible. The manager comes in and tells you to go put your ass on the floor. How is that not sexual harassment, you know? But because it is, in people's minds, it's structured as work and it's in a legitimate place…

 So I've come to the conclusion that the problem is at the municipal level, because the cities keep on granting permits to those business and they make them legitimate. So even though in Canada we do have the correct law, we have the abolitionist model, it's not being enforced very well yet, and the knowledge of this approach has not yet gotten to all the different levels. 

 Luba: Just one moment. I wanted to ask about it a little bit later, about the Nordic Model implementation in Quebec. Just let me reach there. But I wanted to ask you before that, sometimes strip clubs are referred to as less harmful because, “they're just dancing, which is not sex trade, you are not necessarily penetrated, you are just dancing in a sexual attractive way, so it is not the same as the sex trade.” Do you agree with that? 

 Valerie: Well, so first off, in Montreal it is no longer that, it has not been that for 20 years, because all the strip clubs have private booths where the man can touch you. So the way it is, the woman has to keep a G-string on and the man gets to touch her tits and ass. So how is that not gradients of prostitution? And I would even argue-

 Luba: But can you refuse to offer this service?

 Valerie: Well, so they're supposed to just do what I guess is called a ‘lap dance’, where she rubs herself on him and he gets to touch her breast and her ass. He's not supposed to touch her genital and they're not supposed to do sexual act, but from the moment they put walls, with either a curtain or a door, you know that more than just dancing is happening behind that.

 So now it is known throughout town. You can get a blowjob or a handjob in any strip club. Some strip club are even more comfortable. They'll put even a real door with a lock. So you go into a small booth and you get sexual service, anywhere in Montreal. And these places have permits.

 Luba: But I just want to ask, for people who try to deny it maybe: is there any way to earn money in a strip club, just for dancing on the stage?

 Valerie: No, absolutely not. Never has been. I've never gotten paid. You don't have a salary. This stage you do for free. It's like your publicity that you do, to get the guys to want you, to take you to the cabin.

 So before they got the cabin or the booth, however you want to call it, it used to be table dance. So the girl would go on a little round box, and you would be in front of the guy and get fully naked, and he was not allowed to touch you whatsoever. All of this started changing between 2001, 2003. By 2003 it was contact pretty much everywhere. So now it is contact everywhere. That's just a fact.

 Luba: So it was the same in Israel, but just, I wanted to clarify it. So I wanted to ask you, today you see prostitution as violence against women. Have you always seen it like that, or have you had another perception in the past about prostitution, like when you have been to the sex trade? 

 Valerie: Yeah, so absolutely. I didn't have access to those ideas when I was in the industry. In fact, most of us didn't have access to those ideas about 10, 15 years ago. The abolitionist model is kind of recent in people's mind.

 We used to think it was all or nothing. It was black and white. It's either you're very puritanical and you abolish all of it, and everything is criminal and you don't want to see it, and you severely punish the people, all the parties involved in it - so the women, the men, the pimp, everyone, is, like, evil. Whereas the other alternative is like, “oh, let's legalise everything. Let's make it a framework, it's going to be amazing. Let's not ask ourself what these women's days look like, obviously, who cares?”

 So the abolitionist model that comes in and proposes a new way that says, “women, we're going to consider them not criminal anymore, because there are conditions in their life that brought them there. We see that it is a current violence on their body to live that, we know that the rate of PTSD when they get out is terrible.”

 So we started to view women as victims, which is the correct lens, I believe. But then we turn around and we said, “what's the reason for all this industry? Well, there are men who put women to be available for other men, and there are buyers.” So then when we shifted the blame, and we realised that what commended this industry is not poor over-sexualised women who are slutty, but men who coerce and pay us, then you start to see clearly.

 So, I mean, this is just the only approach that will… the intention is to wean the industry out. And that's the only correct way to go about it, is to see there are women who are currently in prostitution that are not ready to get out, that are not able to get out, and I totally understand. Had I been forced to get out when I wasn't ready, I would've experienced it as violence.

 But then at some point you have to stop thinking that this is inevitable, that men need this, that we need to make it so men have places where they go and do that, so that, what, they don't hurt ‘good women’? So there's like, it's a classist view of women.

 There's the kind of women you empty yourself in and have no responsibility over, and there's the kind of woman who's your wife and who you lie to and cheat on. Like, what's the option for women in this patriarchal world, where we're being relegated to mother or whore? Think about it.

 And when women try to have a position of autonomy - they get on the workforce, they struggle to get good jobs, they get paid less than males, they get discriminated if they have children, like, everywhere. It's like there's no escaping this patriarchy. 

 Luba: So let me see if I understood you properly. You have been able to frame your own perception, under the influence of the Nordic Model, which is like the Nordic Model gave you words to express your thought more properly.

 Valerie: Yes, yes, definitely. Because those ideas were not around. The pro-‘sex industry’ lobby is very strong in Montreal, a bit less now, but there was a time for about 10 years where they were the only one called in to speak in the media, and all they talked about was the safety of sex workers and how sex workers should be allowed to self-organise and have these co-ops. And, “it's amazing, let's offer plenty of opportunity for men to come and empty themselves. What a beautiful world.”

 So this was the only voices out there. Survivors who started to say, “wait a minute, like, this is not a job like any other,” the consequences for women, personally, but also as a society, because it makes all women possibly prostituable, so this lens only came later. Like, the Nordic Model passed here, I believe in 2014.

 And you know honestly, before that I didn't have access to those ideas. And I became strongly interested in feminism only about five years ago, so in 2015. So when the law passed, I didn't really understand how good or powerful that law was. I wasn't against it, but I didn't really understand. 

 Luba: In 2014, when the sex purchase ban came into force in Canada, you didn't support it yet? 

 Valerie: I didn't have a position, cause I started from having defended the right to be, like, a free prostitute, a great autonomous self-work, self-sex worker, back in the day. Then I had been out of prostitution for a long time. I was feeling consequences in my body, so I was definitely not ready to say it's a job like any other, or that it should be encouraged. I already knew in my body that I did not wish this for any other woman. 

 Luba: But you didn't have a clear position on the sex purchase ban.

 Valerie: I did not know these ideas. Yeah, I didn't know those ideas. I just thought, it's either you criminalise all of it, or you legalise and you regiment it in a way that is less harmful. But I didn't understand that there was a middle position where the woman could be decriminalised and the man could be held accountable. I didn't have access to those idea. 

 Luba: Yeah, I understand what you say, because in 1999 when the sex purchase ban was enforced in Sweden, I told them, “the Swedes are crazy, I don't understand this idea, either you forbid it or you allow it. What does it mean to criminalise punters?” Anyway, I'm not proud of this now.

 Valerie: No, it's because we come from a place, our experience tells us that unless they beat, rape, and really harm us, that they're okay. Like, we think a client who doesn't beat us is an okay client. Like, that's a terrible place to start from. We're not at the point where we can think that the fact that he puts his empathy in a box, doesn't apply it to us, in the prostitute that is in front of them. We're not there yet. We're not there to understand, like, “he dehumanises me when he buys me,” you know? 

 Luba: Yeah, I understand. But you know, I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier, the focus on punters. Cause in Israel, before the sex purchase ban was enforced, we had prohibition of brothel owners or all kinds of pimps.

 So the question is: maybe it is enough to target the pimps, or maybe it would be possible to educate women, to target teens. So why should we focus on punters? Why should we criminalise punters, when maybe we can tackle it in different ways? 

 Valerie: Yeah. Well I think the fact that they're not held accountable whatsoever is problematic, cause women are very visible, the pimps are around the women, so I guess the police can more easily make a connection, whereas the clients, they just come and go. 

 They're not held accountable. “Oh, she may look young, but I don't know her age.” Like they're never responsible of anything, and they come and go. I saw a statistic that there is ten clients for one prostitute, proportion-wise. So who are these many, many men? You know? Like, they just get to do whatever they want, they're not held accountable.

 I checked with the local police here - I live in downtown Montreal - so I went to my police station and I tried to see what they understood of the law. And literally, like, the patrolling agent who are on the street, they don't understand the law. They think, like, it's only, you know, they'll only be interested in minors that are pimped basically.

 But they still don't understand that clients are problematic because - oh, yeah, this was last year. Absolutely. Because the training was only offered to the investigators, or to the special brigade, that takes care of prostitution. But this little street patroller police officer, he does not comprehend the Nordic Model. They were not trained at that level. I know for a fact they were not. I have worked with police officers giving trainings. 

 Luba: Yeah. But, my question, I understand that it is under-implemented, but I asked the theory question. In theory, could we target only pimps, and try to solve the prostitution problem by targeting pimps?

 Valerie: No. No, absolutely not. Because the pimp - I don't want to start having pity and over-empathy for pimps at all - but they also come from shitty lives. So people are trying to survive, and some do it in a predatorial way. 

 Actually, if you notice, most time when men are in criminal life, they harm others, whereas when women are in a criminal life, they let harm happen to themselves. So that's a pattern that is based on our sex. That's just the way things are.

 So, if men are structuring other women's prostitution, it starts from a place where they've had a shitty education, they've probably been in social services as children. I mean, I'm not making excuse for them, but I'm saying, all of this is a reaction to poverty.

 Whereas the client is the only one who has the power in that transaction. He comes in, he has the money, he pays for your pacification, basically. He pays for you to have great customer service with him, to be, like, pleasant and smiling and fun and not criticise anything.

 He can touch you however he wants, you know, and he can touch you how his wife would never let herself be touched. So the real guilty is whoever commends the demand, and the pimps can only make money, and structure that, because there is a demand.

 If there was not a market for heroin sale, drug dealers would not try to sell heroin. Now, people who used to be drug dealers, prefer to deal in women. Because we can be sold an infinite amount of time and we also don't come with a heavy tax when it comes to sentencing, like pimps get barely, you know, their sentence is nothing compared to drug dealing.

 So a lot of the people who became pimps now used to be drug dealers, they just saw that this is a good business opportunity. They're used to being tough and predatorial, so they're just managing their game. This is, the game has changed, and now they can put themselves up online by themselves. They can create this little business, where they put women up on websites and they sell them, and they collect the money, organise the transportation.

 So these guys think they're, like, self-made, like, this is just pathetic. But they can only create that, this system of selling us, because there's a demand. Because men are googling, they want to fuck a girl, men are googling, “I want anal,” “I want a Black girl,” “I want a small Asian who looks like a child.” Like, men are googling that shit. That's why they end up on these pimp websites where they sell women. 

 Luba: So, okay. This is a very interesting point of view, and thank you very much, you explained this perfectly. So I realised while discussing the previous question that you are not happy with the level of law enforcement. What would you like to see in your city, in Quebec in general, and Canada in general? What is happening now and how would you like to see the enforcement? 

 Valerie: Right, so, there are many things. We have the correct law at the federal level but it has not been implemented equally by all the different provinces. And the way Canada works, you have all these different independent provinces and then it trickles back down to the municipal level.

 And I've been seeing that, for me, the biggest problem with implementing and really enforcing the Nordic Model, is that there has yet to be sufficient training of police officers, social worker, doctors, nurses, there's not enough training yet to explain that our lens has changed.

 Now, we don't view prostituted women as criminal. We view them as victim of their lives, of circumstances, of patterns they're stuck in, of drug addiction. So the fact that the land has changed needs to be really explained to all the different agents at every level of society.

 The other problem, and I've been trying to see - because in Montreal we have all these strip clubs, they have licenses, they are legitimate businesses and they get to renew their license every year - so I went to city council and I confronted our mayoress, and I asked her, “okay, so if there is a federal law that say that it is illegal to structure the resale of human beings, how comes year after year, these businesses get to renew their permit?”

 And she basically told me, “there is an ? between the federal and the municipal laws. At the municipal law, we have a zoning called ‘erotic zoning’, and these businesses have had this license forever.” So basically the city doesn't have the power - or the willingness, that's another topic - to remove that zoning. So basically, with the Nordic Model, the ‘erotic zoning’ should not exist whatsoever at the municipal level. 

 Luba: Just a question. In what province in Canada, the level of enforcement is sufficient, in your opinion? 

 Valerie: I would say Manitoba. Yeah, I've seen that they have john schools, they have programmes for women, for children. They have programmes that take into account particularly Aboriginal people, because they are also very disconnected from their roots. They have generational trauma that is compounded to their struggles, so to reconnect them with their community and to respect their pace. So I know that Manitoba has pushed and done really great things.

 And also what I've known about Manitoba is that the community agencies there - namely the one, I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of her agency, but where Diane Redsky works, she's a Canadian militant Aboriginal who does amazing work - and they have pushed really hard for the media and the police to change their vocabulary.

 So in Manitoba, the media has been trained to no longer use ‘sex work’, but they went even further - they don't even use ‘prostitution’. They've made it so that everyone refers to every form of sex industry as ‘sexual exploitation’. So they've been even more courageous.

 Here in Quebec, I am trying every time a journalist change the word. Cause all of us, like, all of us survivor, we see the journalists call us ‘sex worker’ and so on, and then we email them back and we make you know, like, coming out in the media denouncing this practice of changing the words we use and of always talking about ‘sex work’. But they really went further than that in Manitoba. 

 One of the provinces, I would say, where the fight is going to be the hardest is Vancouver. The Vancouver area, British Columbia, has a history of being very proud of being, you know, instigators of harm reduction, and they're very proud of this status as being ‘progressive’. So for them, I mean, the police literally said that they will not enforce it. They will not arrest clients.

 This is the Vancouver police. Vancouver police refers to it as ‘sex work’, ‘sex workers’, in all their paper literature. I mean, this, for me, conceptually, if we don't change people's minds and the vocabulary they use… It's a big step, and it needs to be done throughout Canada.

 The same way that ‘conjugal rape’ did not exist as a notion a few decades ago. It was expected for a woman to not say ‘no’ to her man when he wants sex. So the idea of conjugal rape is new in our mind. Well, same goes with abolitionism. Yeah, so Vancouver is the one in my opinion that has most work to do because they're very high…

 Luba: We just had the host here in February, visited here, Hilla Kerner from Vancouver Rape Relief, and with her an activist, her name was Alice, activist also from Vancouver, and she is the co-founder of organisation of Asian Women Against Prostitution. 

 Valerie: Yeah, I know them. 

 Luba: And she told me that the problem - yeah, you know them - so she told me that when an Asian woman, just walking outside in Vancouver on the street, she gets offers of money for sex. Just any woman, any Asian woman is subject…

 Valerie: Yeah, especially in Vancouver. And here in Montreal, I would say the ethnic communities that are most represented would be Asian women, the women from Haiti, so a lot of Black women, and a lot of Aboriginal women. A bit less Asian because we're not as close. Yeah, definitely. Well, basically any woman who's poor is targeted, poor or vulnerable or at risk of being… 

 Luba: So just to summarise what you said, so you have a very good implementation of the Nordic Model in Manitoba. So you just could adopt their strategies, learn from them, and then adopt it in any other state, including Quebec.

 Valerie: Yeah, well, we're trying. So survivors at our level, we're trying to change the way the media talks about us. We're making sure that we get booked on TV and in radio to counterbalance the positive ‘sex work’ message and then there are community agency that try to do political representation. 

 But I'm honestly not feeling that at the municipal level for the city of Montreal, that there is a willingness to address sexual exploitation of adult women. Because of course, everyone wants to save children, everywhere. But when it comes to women in businesses that have permits who are adult, who are, you know… 

 As I always say, nobody gets their hooker's diploma at 18, you know, like, almost all of us entered as minors. So what's the difference between minus one minute, and, you know… it's appalling. Like, my whole childhood prepared me for this. Am I going to be blamed for that my entire life? Am I going to suffer the consequence of having been bought? 

 Luba: What do you mean? What do you mean by your childhood prepared you for this?

 Valerie: Well I mean we all have predisposing factor. In my case, I had a father who was addicted to pornography and masturbation and who had worked in the sex industry. So I think he enjoyed very much - he was a doorman in strip clubs - and I believe that he enjoyed living vicariously through me. He liked that life. He liked to be my driver. He drove me to work for many years. Even when I was a prostitute, he would drive me to brothels. 

 Luba: And he didn't try to stop you? 

 Valerie: Not at all. Au contraire. Like, when I tried to exit six years after - and I will remember forever, this is the breaking point for me and I mean, this is a big thing - we're in the parking lot of a strip joint where I'm working and he drops me off for work, and that's when I decide to tell him.

 I said, “you know, dad, I just got a bursary to go to university, and I can't deal with it. The fact that what is expected of me during the daytime at school versus what I have to do at night, I just, I can't handle it. I can't have the guys anymore, like all of this, I can't take it.” And all he did was say, “well, you can't stop dancing, like, how are you going to pay rent?”

 And then as I was exiting, he kept on coming back with offers, every few months when I would be low on cash. “Well, you could go work at that place,” or, “my friend has a sexy waitress restaurant, you could go there.” Like, so, I mean, what father wants this for their child? So not only does he not acknowledge my intelligence and my ability, but he literally does not want better for me.

 So these pornophile men, to be honest, I'm fucking done. Like, I can't deal with that. This is appalling. This is what porn does to people, you know.

 Luba: And your mother? 

 Valerie: My mom, we're not very much speaking at the moment. We're not in a fight. It's just that I don't feel very supported by my family for all my activism. And I've had many really good moments in the year where I did great things. I was on TV, I got to speak at Parliament Hill, and I did all these events where I was expecting my family to be proud, to share it, to like it, you know.

 And zero, zip, nada. No. They're, like, ashamed of it. Because, and this was explained to me, one of my aunts was walking in the shopping mall and someone came up to her and said, “I saw her on TV.” And then they ask her, “why didn't you do anything to help her?”

 And again, like, I don't even say that to her. I don't even think anyone could have helped me. I was nine hours away from my hometown, by myself, with my pornophile father. So none of my family is to blame for what happens to me. I don't blame them, but I guess they might be blaming themselves.

 Luba: Maybe they blame themselves. 

 Valerie: Yeah. So because I was insulted, that I keep on receiving these emails from strangers congratulating me for taking a stand, for speaking on behalf women, I have all these young women who email me that I'm an inspiration, that I'm helping them understand, maybe not fall back into something.

 And on the other hand, I have zero support from my family. So this breaks my heart and my strategy is to just, I remove them all from my social media, and I'm just like, if you're not going to support publicly what I do, I'm sorry, I'm not dealing with this.

 So that's what happens. So I love them, I care about them, and at the moment, I'm not speaking, because being a militant is my whole life. And if you're not going to be proud of that and support that, I don't need you in my life. I'm sorry. 

 Luba: I understand what you say.

 Valerie: And I'll tell you, the survivors who are doing best while being an active militant are the ones who have a really good supportive family. So if you don't have that, it is a struggle. Cause when I have successes, it hits me. I'm like, okay, but they're not there. They're not appreciating this success with me. So, yeah, it's hard. 

 Luba: Understand. But thank you for sharing this. And how are you today?

 Valerie: I'm good. I'm good. 

 Luba: Are you okay? Were you able to get rid of the consequences of your past in the sex trade? You mentioned the germaphobia.

 Valerie: Yes. I am doing better than I ever was, for sure. It's a process. So there are times where I get discouraged. For example, finding employment is difficult, still to this day, because now instead of being because I'm ashamed of having been a prostitute, now it's because I'm so known as an abolitionist militant that most of the community agencies are managed according to harm reduction and they're usually pro ‘sex work’.

 So, that blocks me from being employed in agencies that actually help prostituted women. That's one of the struggle. Yeah, but that's all they do. They don't have this lens that being prostituted is not an optimal. So if you don't start from the premise…

 Like, okay, so I have asked, I just got to tell you this. Whenever I go to conferences or meetings where there's a lot of people who do outreach work with prostituted women, I always ask them, “when you're with the women, do you ask them if they would like to get out? Do you ask them if they would like to do something else?”

 And they literally tell me, “oh, no, I don't, because I think it's like a judgment call to ask that.”

I'm like, what do you mean? This is not a human option.

 Luba: It's not judgment, asking! 

 Valerie: It's not! But they think it's judging the fact that she's doing that, to say, “oh, it's not the right choice, like, you should be doing some something else.” They so don't want to judge, that they don't even want better for us. That’s what insults me. 

 Luba: Maybe they just they don't have abilities or resources to help the woman. If she will say, “yeah, I want to exit.” Maybe they don't know how to help her… 

 Valerie: I don’t think it’s that. Honestly that they don't want to. For them, it carries a judgement to ask if she would like to quit and leave and not do that anymore. Because resources are there. They do exist. I mean, they could connect her with a bunch of community services.

 Like, we're very lucky in Montreal. We have a lot of community agency that can help you with anything from food to employment to finding an apartment. And again, I think employment is not a priority. When you get out of prostitution, you should be allowed to have a short-term disability in order to rest and just...

 Work is the last priority. And usually they need to sleep. They need to sleep a lot and reconnect with their sensations. 

 Luba: And so basically, you do have the resources. So proper training for social workers and the exit services could solve the problem, a big deal of it.

 Valerie: It's a lens. The problem is in people's lens. They do not want to view prostitution as not an optimal. Because they believe it's a judgment call because the pro-sex work lobby is very strong here. It has been telling, “it's an empowering choice, some women enjoy the freedom of schedule it gives them, blah, blah, blah.”

 But again, we're talking about the one who go to this community agency for help, usually the street one, the most damaged one, the most abused one. And yet you look at this woman and nothing in you wants you to ask, “you know, would you like to do something else? Would you like, you know, other occupation or a feeling of safety?”

 But they don't, all they do is give condom, pass STD test, listen to them, you know, because they get raped, they get beaten. So yeah, they offer listening, but it's a short-term lens. But they don't make the connection because they don't think that clients are the problem. They only think that bad clients are the problem.

 So for me it's a question of lens. You either have a short-term lens where you help the person survive in the here and now, or you move to a longer-term lens where you want to try to reconnect the person with a broader social system, with a different leisure activity, like going to the pool or yoga, or all these things that honestly, we don't do when we're in the sex industry. We're very disconnected from our bodies.

 Luba: So probably abolitionists like you are the hope. You will bring the change. 

 Valerie: Well, we're working hard, but I confront people. When I see community workers who do not ask women, I tell them, “when I was 17, I would've killed for having someone ask me, well, tell me, you know, you could do something else. You have talent. You're capable, I believe in you.” 

 But if no one tells you that, all they do is, “respect your choice to be a sex worker, not judge your choice, make sure you're okay, you have condoms, blah, blah, blah.” So again, it's about, what do we want as an optimal for women. You know, I want women to not be routinely penetrated for money. That's what I want.

 Luba: Thank you Valerie. It was very interesting. 

 Valerie: Thank you. Have we gone through all of your questions? 

 Luba: Yes. 

 Valerie: Yay! 

 Luba: So thank you both for this interview and for your activism.

 Valerie: Thank you so much. I think I answered everything kind of not in the order that, that you were asking, but I try to give as much info as I could.

 Luba: Yeah. So I cancelled last questions, because they were already answered in different way. Okay. So thank you very much for everything. People like you make this world so much better for us, for our children.

 Valerie: Same. Same. I read you every day as well and thank you for your effort. I think it's an international cause, each of us in our respective country. And you know, the more we network through global organisation like CAP International and things like that, that's how we're going to become one voice. And you and I both, we are in pretty privileged country, but we realise that if we abolish here, prostitution is just going to move to third world country. 

 Luba: It must, it should start somewhere. It should start somewhere. It is just like I hear many people say that once you abolish it in one country, prostitution just moves to another country.

 Like from France it moved to Spain. And from Sweden and Norway, it moved to Denmark, but. But still, you should start somewhere and then it'll expand wider and wider and wider until the entire world will leave this modern slavery in the past. 

 Valerie: If you want, I think I would like to add something. Maybe they'll cut it in. I think I would like to explain at the federal level the situation. We have basically three parties who stand a chance to be elected. Unfortunately, the ones who drove, and made it pass, the abolitionist law, are the conservative. 

 And I'm sure you know most of the time, abolitionists, we have to create allyship and partnership with more conservative people because they're the only one who seem to be abolitionists. All the progressives are pro-sex work. So what does that leave us? I mean, it's difficult, it's annoying, but that's how it is.

 So the conservative in Canada are the one pushing and enforcing the abolitionist model. Sadly, and really, really sadly, the liberals, which is the current party of Justin Trudeau and the NDP are not at all abolitionists. In fact, the young liberals, which is the young branch of the liberal party, is actually pushing for decriminalisation of prostitution and surrogacy. So they want to destroy the Nordic Model law.

 So I want to invite people to be very vigilant, cause this is what they're trying to do and we need to counteract this and explain that this is not banal. Make people understand the connection between surrogacy and prostitution because surrogacy is reproductive exploitation.

 So in Canada, already it is illegal to sell blood, to sell sexual cells and sperm and so on, or organs. So why not go a step further, be coherent and understand that selling access to women's body fits within that same category of things that need to be untouchable by the market? So this is what I want to warn about. 

 Unfortunately in Canada, the law is shaky. They are trying to evaluate it, at the moment they're doing an evaluation of what it's done so far. But the problem is, because it was not really implemented throughout Canada evenly and because we're not really arresting clients and having john school, like, we're not yet telling men to stop buying women at a social level.

 I have not seen a campaign on TV that tells you that buying women is criminal, you should know that, also please understand that these are victims, blah, blah, blah. None of that is done. So it's almost like it's up to activist and community agency to carry this publicly because the government on its end is not doing much at the moment.

 So, I mean, we do have the correct law, but we need to make them... I mean, all citizens need to understand that the government, we put them there, they are accountable to us. So people need to stop thinking like, “oh, them and us.” It's not us and them. We put them there. They have to listen to us. I'm really tired of how people are all submissive in front of elected official. We put them there. They are there to respond to our needs.

 What they're doing is instead they're responding to corporation and lobbyists, you know, the whole political system is a problem, but the abolitionist law we have is still on shaky ground. It could revert. And if it's not being enforced and if doesn't trickle down to the municipal level where these sex businesses stop existing, then we're not going to be able to measure positive results cause it's not being applied properly. So that's it. 

 Luba: I understand it now. Okay. So I really hope that all the provinces of Canada will follow the positive Manitoba example. 

 Valerie: Let's hope. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to talk to you. 

 Luba: I hope to see you next year in Montreal. 

 Valerie: Yes, I hope it happens.