#106 

Pippa from FiLiA in conversation with Afsana Lachaux: Dubai and Sharia law - a Warning for Women

Pippa: Welcome to the FiLiA podcast. And today I'm going to be interviewing Afsana Lachaux who is a British woman ordered to pay her ex-husband's legal costs of £94,000 after a family High Court case involving her trying to gain contact with her son, she's launched a crowdfunding campaign on GoFundMe to raise the money or faces the threat of bankruptcy.

Afsana won the Emma Humphrey's Memorial prize in 2019 for her role in campaigning for equal treatment for women in the justice system. And she persuaded the Foreign Office to change their travel advice, to warn women of the legal perils they could face in the United Arab Emirates. 

Afsana is now in the process of challenging the cost order.

So Afsana, thank you very, very much for joining us we really appreciate your time. I just want to go back to when this all began way back in 2012, when the divorce in the United Arab Emirates was granted.

Can you give us a summary of events since then? Because a lot has happened. 

Afsana: Yes, thank you, Pippa, I'm really delighted to be here. And although it's a very difficult time for me, I'd just like to give my appreciation to FiLiA for supporting me and to FiLiA listeners and FiLiA supporters as well to sort of give me this platform to be able to share my story. So thank you very much for that, for that.

So your question asked me to just to let people know what my case is. 

It's quite complicated. So I'll try and summarise it. So actually what happened was in 2011, I was living in Dubai. My relationship broke down with my ex-husband. At that time, my son, in 2011, was one-year-old. My then husband locked us out of the house in Dubai and I found myself destitute, on the streets of Dubai, with a one-year-old baby to look after. I wasn't given any financial support and I found myself in this awful position, pretty much, in 2011, where I was homeless, my passport had been taken by the Dubai police. I had made a complaint against my ex-husband on the grounds of domestic abuse, but the police didn't believe me.

And what had happened after was a series of events. There were lots of newspaper articles on my story where I found myself in a terrible situation with a 12-month old baby to look after, passport being taken by the authorities and between 2011 and 2013, I was effectively homeless, sleeping on floors, relying on charitable handouts to feed myself and my baby. 

The British embassy, which won't come as any shock to anyone, were absolutely useless. For example, I was being arrested several times. at one stage, in 2011 or 2012, which was documented on the Embassy, I was chucked in a Dubai prison cell with Louis who was 12 months old at that time.

All because of false complaint that was made by my ex-husband. So I was basically being arrested with all these false complaints, the Dubai authorities and police were harassing me a fair bit. And the Embassy were of no help. And then I found myself in a refuge at one stage, I was sent by the Embassy to a domestic violence refuge in Dubai for protection and safety.

But unfortunately the refuge in UAE is situated next to Dubai's central jail. It's actually staffed by police and under Dubai law. Under Dubai's guardianship laws, husbands can come and visit the refuge because that's the law they're entitled to do that. So it's not a refuge in the sense that we know it.

So there was a series of events that happened which led me to go into hiding because of the harassment and abuse from the police and the constant arrest that I faced as a result of the false charges. And therefore in 2012, I found myself being divorced in absentia. I was still in hiding and my ex-husband had gone to the UAE courts and obtained a divorce, which is ostensibly based on Sharia Islamic law. And then in 2013 … 

Pippa: Sorry to interrupt you.  I didn't realize that the Sharia divorce happened without you actually even being there. 

Afsana: Yeah. So it was done in my absence because I was in hiding at the time. And another element of the story to give you synopsis were under, which we've come to discuss later, but under in those proceedings, the same two policemen that had refused to take my complaint of domestic violence. And because it's Islamic law, they were the two male witnesses.

So in a Sharia divorce, you need two male witnesses. So they were the witnesses to the divorce. I wasn't around. And in that divorce, there was an order to have Louis removed from my care. And so Louis was taken off me in October, 2013, like I said, I was in hiding. My ex-husband found where we were living. And then, because he had the court order, which basically ordered the permanent removal of Louis, Louis was taken off me and then I was accused of kidnapping and stood trial actually for kidnapping in February 2014. 

Pippa: So that unbelievably traumatic and stressful for you.

Afsana: This is obviously six years on and I would say that the trauma is still ongoing. You never get over that. I was about to be imprisoned actually. And had it been, not for my family's campaigning, they campaigned, there were a lot of media reports on my case. I always thought that I would never get out of the UAE alive and I would be rotting in jail because these regimes and these places, I mean, anyone knows about Dubai's systems. I really had no hope of getting back. I had no hope of seeing Louis more importantly, the effect of being imprisoned for kidnapping would've meant that I would never see Louis and the order gave me no contact with Louis.

So it's almost like the trauma of having a child ripped out of your womb. That obviously had a deep impact on my own mental health. From that time, I have PTSD as a result.

 So all of this happened in 2014. And then I found myself in 2014 in a position where I was about to be in prison, like I said, for kidnapping and then for defamation, because my ex-husband had reported to the Dubai police that I was defaming Dubai and defaming him because of all the newspaper articles. So I would not have been released. I was actually sentenced. I was given a one month suspended sentence, but I wouldn't have been released had it not been that the international media had highlighted my case.

Dubai being very sensitive to those issues and I suspect why they gave me a suspended sentence was that they didn't want a British woman. …

Pippa: They’re quite keen, aren't they, to present themselves favourably to the west?

Afsana: Yeah, so campaigning does help. I mean, obviously I’m forever eternally grateful not to the British government, but to the British public.

To this day I owe my freedom, my life to the good, humane people. 

 Pippa: So your family and the media then campaigned for your release and you returned to the UK. 

Afsana: So I returned to the UK. Louis have been taken off me, so I returned 2014.

For the pretty much, the first year, I would say life was very difficult for me. like I said, suffered severe PTSD, very much depression. I mean, you know, the imprisonment, the sheer thought of being separated from Louis wasn’t something that I could handle. So pretty much the first year, the way I describe it is I pretty much spent that first year in bed.

I couldn't go out, my PTSD would be triggered by people I thought who were Emirates and it sounds really weird, but certain imagery would trigger me. I wouldn't want to go out. I wouldn't want to socialise. I mean, it was at a stage where, I mean, I've got young nephews and nieces that are the same age as Louis. I couldn't bear to go to playground or go out and see another child of Lou's age because to do that was just a reminder of what I had lost. Louis was lost to me. So that was painful. And then somehow I managed to get the strength and put myself together with a lot of help from women's groups. And that's why organisations like FiLiA and all the other organisations that are campaign for women's rights. I got in contact with Southall Black Sisters with Pragna and her team and with the help and just through campaigning, you know, there were people on Twitter.

 I managed to start a campaign to be reunited. It was called Bring Louis Home to be reunited with Louis. And I was lobbying the foreign office and the embassy to highlight the plight of my case. I wrote pretty much to all the ministers and the FCO on a continual basis. So I started campaigning basically. 

And through the campaign I was very lucky and got the help of a pro bono legal team to file a case for basically to have contact with Louis.

So my argument and my legal campaign really was about ‘Here's what happened. I'm a British citizen, Louis has British nationality. What happened in Dubai was wrong’ I was divorced, like I said, in absentia, but also I was divorced under Islamic sort of divorce. 

My ex-husband is French Catholic, and we had married here. Although I know in law that doesn't really matter where you marry. As I found out the law is very complicated, but just everything about my case was wrong. And it's just whatever level you look at it, it was just inhumane and I had no contact. So my only reason for doing the legal case was I just wanted to see Louis and I wanted Louis to know that he had a mother in his life.

Pippa: That's what jumped out from the papers that you sent me. It wasn't about money or anything else. It was just about child arrangements. Wasn't it. And arranging contact with him. 

Afsana: Yes. And that's something that legal team have always specifically argued in court. So, you know, when you look at, as I was trying to explain to the English court, I thought, and as I've said throughout my crowdfunding campaign, which a lot of people have amazingly donated, people have been amazingly generous and compassionate, is that, here was I, a British woman, who had no protection, regardless of whether or not you believed me, I remained separated from my son because of the Islamic divorce. 

As it was, I was facing the Sharia divorce judgment that I have no contact unless I went to Dubai. So one of the elements was that I should go to Dubai and I should see Louis there.

And in fact, the English court, that's what the Judge first wanted me to do or asked me to do … 

Pippa: I can imagine that, being asked to do that is the last thing that you would ever, ever want to do after your experiences in Dubai, but can I just go back to the grounds for divorce in the Sharia divorce?

Can you just explain what those were and why the Sharia divorce was granted?

Afsana: So the divorce was granted under personal status laws. So the court that he was granted in, and which obviously the judge made a great deal about, was for non-Muslims. It was the non-Muslim court, but the personal status laws that the divorce was granted is entirely Sharia based. What people need to understand is all of Dubai's legal system is Islamic Sharia. So when my divorce, which I'm quite happy to share, I've shared bits of it on social media, quite happy to share it. I've shared it with all the media outlets is, I mean, it starts off saying ‘in the name of Allah the head of the Dubai court is Sheik Matoub, all the Dubai judges swear an oath to the leader and to Allah. 

The terms of the divorce that I was divorced on were the fact that I disobeyed my ex-husband, disobedience. The things in the divorce, that I was neglectful because of Louis had a skin condition. Basically Louis had eczema, I mean, eczema runs in my family, it's not grounds for neglect. So that was the one of the grounds. There was a specific reference that was stipulated in the divorce that I had been going out clubbing that I was a frequent night clubber and that I go out drinking and clubbing. In the divorce it says, here are the pictures. So the pictures and I can quite categorically state what the pictures are, the pictures that were given to justify the divorce and my neglect and my clubbing, those were pictures of my hen night.

We had had an English marriage ceremony after Louis was born. I couldn't have it when I was pregnant. And so what had happened was I took Louis to the Mint Leaf restaurant in Trafalgar, and my friends had organised a hen night before our big event. So that was taken in a restaurant. Yes, there was alcohol, there were other children there, there were adults. So, and there were also quite homophobic references that I frequented with libertines, which meant my gay friends, basically. Okay …

Pippa: Sorry, just to, just to say, Dubai drinking alcohol is legal in Dubai isn’t it? 

Afsana: No, it's not legal. They do allow drinking for expats and in the hotels and restaurants. So in one sense you are right. It is, but it still is Islamic law. That's a quirk of Dubai because they want tourists to drink and they want their money. 

Pippa: Yeah, exactly. And they want it both ways maybe. 

Afsana: Those are some of the grounds. And then the photos, as I said, were photos of my hen night. So the fact that he used photos of our wedding effectively, I mean, he wasn't there on the hen night, obviously. And I was there with my girlfriends and gay friends. 

So you can see, uh, I mean, like I said, I'm being very carefully factually stating. So these were all the grounds that I was a drinker, I was a clubber, I was neglectful because of this ….. 

Pippa:  And you didn't obey your husband, but see, that's what I find really interesting because Judge Mostyn in the High Court here said that the divorce was in Dubai, which have also been condemned by the UN for treating women as second class citizens were broadly similar to our own.

So how can he reconcile those grounds for divorce with the divorce laws here. And what did your legal team say about this? 

Afsana: I can't answer for Justice Mostyn. I think that's the million dollar question I've been asking for the last three years.

The judgment is public. Anyone can see it. 

I think what's insightful and what's useful to understand is there are various references that he makes about the Dubai law so when he says, it's obviously not in the judgment, but he says it's broadly similar. So for example, in one part of the, and I can't remember if it’s the judgment or the transcript, which I have, he says that they bent over backwards. The Dubai police bent over backwards to help the Dubai court system. I was being arrested. 

So one of the big arguments my legal team made is, there is a reason, for example, why I went into hiding because I was being constantly arrested for false charges. And then one of the other things that he found a finding of fact, and it's written in the judgment, Justice Mostyn said I wasn't trapped in Dubai.

I mean, part of my case and how the media reported my story was that I had been trapped in Dubai. I did a subject access request. I've got my whole embassy file. I presented, or my legal team presented extensive evidence contemporaneous notes from my Embassy file. The Embassy had known a lot about my case. And although I said they were useless, they had, for example, come along with me to the police station as they do when you are being arrested. My file was taken away from me in 2011. And wasn't given back to me until 2014 after the kidnapping trial. So that means my passport, for example, was taken away from me and held for three years.

Yet Justice Mostyn concluded that, and then it's in there in the judgment, that I hadn't been trapped. I had free will and I did as I pleased. He made some very, can only be described as quite sexist, quite personal comments about in my lifestyle. which I think are deep rooted in misogyny.

So when you say, how can this be right? What did my legal team did put forward, they put extensive arguments forward, which listeners might know: I had a parallel case in France, and I've said that on my Crowdfunder there's more details about that. Now the French court found the Dubai divorce and Dubai laws to be discriminatory towards women. The French decision said that basically I'd been discriminated against and Dubai personal laws are abhorrent in their treatment of women ..

Pippa:  Just to explain to people listening. Can you just explain why there was the need to have the case heard in France as well as England? If you could just explain that.

Afsana:  My ex-husband is French. And so what he did is when I returned back to the UK, without Louis in 2014, my ex-husband as a French citizen needed his Dubai divorce ratified. Apparently this happens to all French citizens.  He didn't get a European divorce. Interestingly enough, we had a pre-nup agreement signed in France, which said that he would use European law and French law to divorce. But because he didn't do that and he used UAE Islamic law that had to be ratified with recognition in the French court. But the French Court of Appeal and the French Supreme Court found on my side. I challenged it. I said, I don't recognise the divorce. Just like I said, in England, I don't recognise the divorce it's discriminatory and it should never be recognised.

And actually the French Supreme Court, this was in the tail end of last year, came down on my side and the French Court of Appeal and said bylaws discriminate, the treatment that I was given was not the same, basically they said that men and women are equal before the law. And it breached European human rights law. And that's what …. 

Pippa: And presumably then buoyed up by that decision, you thought you would get a judgment in the UK, is that correct? 

Afsana: Yeah. So the sequence of events was once the French Court of Appeal had said that, my legal team did think that the British Court of Appeal because Mostyn’s judgment came before the French Court of Appeal.

The British Court of Appeal when I appealed Mostyn’s judgment, basically because that wasn't right, the British Court of Appeal were aware of the French decision yet they still decided to ratify Justice Mostyn’s high court decision. I think most people will think, why is it the French court said men and the women are equal, Dubai’s person status laws are discriminatory towards women, we don't respect their law, which is what the French said, we don't respect your law. But the British court said actually, British Court of Appeal said no, nothing to see here, you know? 

Pippa: Interesting. And also when I was making my own timeline here, it took quite a few months for the judgment to arrive because the hearing was in October 2018 and then you didn't get the judgment until May 2019. 

Afsana: For the court of appeal? Yes.

Pippa: That's quite a wait. 

Thank you for explaining that some people might not have sort of understood that the French dynamic as well as the British one as well. 

So just going back to Mostyn’s judgment, there was criticism on both sides about both sides from Justice Mostyn about you and your ex-husband's behaviour.

But it does seem that he penalised you more heavily. Why do you think that is? 

Afsana: In the judgment itself and both at the hearing itself, he did criticise both parties and then in the end he came out and said that he preferred the evidence of my ex I think that's the judge's terms. Isn't it preferred?

So he basically in essence accused me of lying. And there was a lot of evidence given in court. I mean, one thing that again, might interest readers is I had a, quite an eminent independent, uh, doctor examine my condition of PTSD and in the judgment, he goes to great lengths to basically debunk false memory.

So in his mind, what he came out with was that I had made it up. My memories were probably unreliable and false and in fact, he does judgment that, uh, I think he quotes me saying that I wanted to be vindicated and I think he painted me very much. Like, it's almost like what, you know, in the book Eve was Framed that Baroness Kennedy wrote, I was a manifestation of it I was the other woman, I was the whore, the slut, I'm using those words because that is how women like myself are painted. 

Although he criticised me and people will point to that. And I mean, I do a media thing. They say, well, you know, this is very tricky because he basically didn't believe you. And you know, he doesn't believe the abuse. 

I think what's insightful is on one hand, he says that, yes, you weren't abused. You weren't this and you, you know, you made it all up. He finds finding of facts. He says, I wasn't trapped, even though the British Embassy records clearly say my passport was taken.

But for economic abuse. He does a finding of fact picker, which I think is very important is he does find that I was kicked out of the house with a one-year-old, baby. I was given no financial support. I've never been given a single penny. In fact, my ex-husband has pursued me and pursued me multiple times as you can see with the cost order.

 So he finds that I was chucked out the house. a fact finding that I've got PTSD. He finds fact finding that I hadn't received any financial support.

Now by any definition, certainly in this country and across actually Europe, anyone who understands domestic violence, that’s domestic violence.

Pippa: That’s what I wanted to ask you because there's another case, another recent case from last year, I think, where the judge was heavily criticised about his attitude to domestic abuse control and coercion. And I just wanted to, I mean, you've probably answered this already, but I just wanted to ask you what you think about domestic abuse training for judges, particularly family judges in the UK.

Criminal judges are given training on consent sexual offences, but family judges aren't. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on domestic abuse training for judges. 

Afsana: I think, I mean, obviously there are more eminent campaigners and, you know, the family court system. There's one thing I do know. And I campaign about the family court system is in a mess. you know, in terms of training for, I think one of the training that should be organised, it's actually an awareness of the lived realities of women's lives. I can only talk about my case and the judge in this specific case who I would say went out of his way to denigrate me to paint in a specific, and it is very personal because you can see that if I I've got the trial transcripts, which are different. transcripts, tell you a different, a judgment. I always say to people, not everything is black and white. A judgment tells you one thing that's publicly available. The actual hearing transcripts tell you a completely different story. 

I mean, this was a judge that says going back to your previous question, that Dubai system is the same. And he actually said that had I been in England, he would've had me arrested and the same thing would've happened to me now. 

First of all, I'm just quoting what my legal team has said, that wouldn't have been the case. In this country, whether it's domestic abuse or not in family court cases, you have Cafcas who are involved because the welfare of the child is paramount. In Dubai equivalent of Cafcas is the Dubai criminal police there is no Cafcas. So how a judge, a British judge can say the Dubai family court system is the same as ours.

I was divorced by two male witnesses, two police officers. Again, Mostyn’s judgment said he actually does say, well, that's not different to ours. We have police giving evidence in court all the time. Yes, you may have on criminal matters. I mean, can you point to me or any reader where a British woman has been divorced in a British court by two police officers?

I mean, does that exist in our family court system? 

Pippa: This is so interesting because through your campaigning on this issue, you've managed to change the travel advice of the foreign and Commonwealth office haven't you and it's, it's now been changed to actually warn women about the legal dangers that they might face from divorce law in Dubai.

So, you know, women thinking of going to Dubai on holiday you you've actually managed to change the advice coming out of the foreign office. So when did that happen?

Afsana: That happened when I returned. So the foreign office a section on travel advice to UAE and it was in 2014.

Buried in there. I mean, they always bury it in because you have to remember the British government have lots of lucrative, rich trade deals with the UAE, so it's all very political. And this is why I suspect that there is evidence of the courts actually getting involved in being political as well.

Although they say they're not, but I can’t …. 

Pippa: Yeah, Justice Mostyn. He described the UAE as a friendly nation. Those were his exact words. So he was keen to perpetuate the good relations wasn't he? 

Afsana: Yes. I think if you look at his work, his, that is his exact quote and like he says the UAE is a friendly nation, but he doesn't say, he says the French decision, like now, nothing to see here.

This is a country whose ruler, and I remind those who don't know, this country, the ruler of Dubai, his wife, Princess Haya last year fled to this country. She also filed a Family Court case, that was with Justice McFarlane who ruled that the Dubai ruler was guilty of torture and kidnap of his own daughter, Princess Latifa, who's not a resident of England, her children aren't a resident of England. They have no relationship with England and this is not a common or criticism of the Princess, it's right that she got protection here. And the same British court, which damned me and said that I was treated fairly by a UAE court and how dare I kind of challenge that, in the same judicial system, they granted the wife, a Princess, a court order to say that actually Dubai's judicial system wasn't good and she would've been in danger and the head of the Dubai court was found guilty of torture.

How is that right? And how is that morally or legally justifiable? 

Pippa: So how are you taking this forward and how are you challenging this really draconian cost order? What are your next steps? 

Afsana: So with the cost order, because I lost the case, the law says that if you lose, not necessarily in family, what happened was the judge at his discretion, no reasons given anywhere, he said that I should pay my ex-husband's legal cost and my ex-husband is wealthier than I am and at the time he ordered it, as I've said in the crowdfunder, I didn't have a job. I was caring for my mum. I was suffering severe mental health difficulties. So to this day, I still don't understand why he would use a discretion, and it goes back to that thing about, I think, misogyny and punishment, I mean, you tell me Pippa, you are a person of the law, why would you do that? If the law didn't require you to do that, why would you do that? Or even if I had to pay or say why, if it was my conduct, then normally specified in the judgment. So no reasons were given, which puts me in the position that I am now, where I've had to go public to raise the money. So as of today, while we're recording this, thankfully, you know, people have been amazing and I've got £28,000 now that doesn't satisfy the whole of the costs.

So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to challenge it, to see, for example, if I can get it reduced or if there is some flexibility, I don't know the law and I've been acting as a litigant in person so far. And the way I look at it, it's very bleak for, and the system is just stacked against me.

I mean, apart from a wing and a prayer, I can't see myself getting out of this situation because it's very overwhelming because everyone, as everyone tells me, it's the law and how do you fight that? And the only way I can is to raise awareness. I put a petition up about cost orders that they shouldn't be granted.

Because if this happened to me, this could easily happen to other women, other people. Men and women actually, it's not, yes, I mean, in this case, it's about myself as a victim, but it could happen to anyone. So it's pretty bleak and I know I should …. 

Pippa: You say it could happen to anyone, but it does seem like systemic sexism really, and misunderstanding of domestic abuse and how everything is stacked against you.

And I mean, you've been through so much, obviously it has had an impact on you, how are you now on a personal level? 

Afsana: Well, I would say, I think to end on a positive note, after all pretty much eight years of fighting this, I do have contact with Louis.

I get to see him six hours a year. So twice a year, Louis comes to this country and I get to see him in a contact centre. That's supervised. So it's three hours each time. So although it's been a very costly, financially costly and psychologically and emotionally impact on me at least now my son knows that I'm around. We have video contact as well. So there is that, which I want to make clear. 

So, for all that fighting and for all the things that I've had to put up with and trauma I have got a relationship with my son. That's the most precious thing you have. So I will always be indebted to my legal team who got me that because I think there can be no better outcome.

When we look at the legal system, I was very fortunate if I didn't have pro bono help, and this would be my other sort of plea because the system is so broken. Is that how would women, other women and end up when they don't have those resources? It's impossible. 

So I think campaigning works. I think the solidarity in the women's network and through the supporters, it's been absolutely amazing. I'm only standing really because of everyone's support. I mean, 101%, I can say that.

Pippa: That's good to hear that you have had all of that support and also, you know, good on you, you’re an amazing person just having gone through all of that and you have come out the other end, but you've sent a really strong message to your son that you were prepared to fight to see him. And that is a really strong message and that counts for so much. So you have my admiration. absolutely and I wish you all the very best. 

Afsana: Thank you.