#105 

Raquel Rosario Sánchez in conversation with Dr Nicola Williams: Fair Play for Women - why sex-based policies matter for women's sport

Raquel: Hello everyone. Welcome to the FiLiA podcast. My name is Raquel Rosario Sánchez, and I am the spokeswoman for FiLiA. Today, we are delighted to have Fair Play for Women, a campaigning and consultancy group, which raises awareness, provides evidence and analysis and supports policy makers to protect the rights of women and girls in the UK.

They are concerned that in the rush to reform transgender laws and policies, women's voices are not being heard or listened to. They are run by a team of volunteers with skills in many different disciplines, without any corporate sponsorship or formal funding. Fair Play for Women works hard to bring this issue to the public attention.

Today, we are delighted to speak with Dr Nicola Williams, who is the Director of Fair Play for Women. Dr Williams is a research scientist and specialises in human biology. She has a number of senior scientific positions within the pharmaceutical industry. She's now dedicating her full-time voluntary role as campaign director and public spokeswoman for Fair Play for Women.

Nicola, how are you? 

Nicola: I'm lovely. Thank you. Pleased to be here.  

Raquel: Do you mind telling us a little bit about how Fair Play for Women came about. 

Nicola: Well, Fair Play for Women in the beginning really actually came from Mumsnet. It was a group of women that started talking on Mumsnet about some of the sex-based right issues and a group of women really sort of set up on Facebook and started talking to each other and then a blogging website emerged. But then about three years ago I got involved and I decided that I wanted to dedicate some time to this, to the campaign.

So I took over the reins and we've now converted the organisation into a, well, what was a blogging website, into an organisation that now campaigns for a range of sex-based rights. 

We talk to policy makers. We want to help them understand the law and the science so that women's sex-based rights can be put into practice in policy making.

Raquel: What are the different aspects of Fair Play for Women? We're going to be devoting this podcast mainly to talk about sports, but I know that you do some other issues. 

Nicola: The first campaign we ran was around the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) it was the summer of 2018 where Fair Play for Women had a street campaign and so hundreds of women went out on the streets, handed out leaflets, talked to the public really about what the Gender Recognition Act was and why it was a concern to women. That was around the ability of trans people to self-identify the sex on their birth certificate. We explained why that would be a, a problem for the sex-based rights of women and girls. 

So we started off around the GRA campaign and that has been successful with the recent government announcement that the reform is being dropped.

Since then we've been involved in prison policy. The trans inclusion policy in prisons allows some male born transgender people to be located in women's prisons. And we say that that's not right, that's not safe or fair on women to have to live alongside males, particularly when in prison. A huge proportion of those women have already suffered male violence. So we certainly campaign on the area of prisons.

We've spoken out on many topics, really changing rooms, the need for women to have single sex places to undress. Also hospital wards. At the moment, a male born transgender person can self-identify onto a women's ward. I don't think many people really know that until the time you are there in hospital, or you are visiting your elderly mother in hospital and you find a male born person, fully male bodied in the bed next to her.

 So we talk about all of those issues and if there's ever an opportunity, we want to make sure that women's voices are being heard when policies are being made, because obviously, you know, anything to do with sex and gender matters to women and so we need to be around that table. 

So that's what we try to do. Our biggest campaign and our current campaign is around sports and that's because so many sporting bodies now have trans inclusion policies that will allow male born transgender people into women's teams and that we say that that's unfair. In some sports it's unsafe, particularly in sports like rugby. And that's been in the news lately. We've had some good success with world rugby understanding the issues and changing their policies and reacting. 

Raquel: Yes, so you're referring to the news that the World Rugby Association announced, I think it was last week, that they are going to essentially create a policy that is, they try to be inclusive, but they realise that actually, sometimes you do have to have some boundaries based on sex, particularly in a sport where there is so much contact and that could be described by some people as aggressive.

Were you present at some of these meetings? Was Fairplay for Women invited to some of these meetings? 

Nicola: Yes, we were. So World Rugby held a meeting in February earlier this year. And it was a comprehensive analysis really at that meeting of all of the data, they looked at the science, they looked at the legal issues. They looked at the ethics of inclusion in sport. Transgender lobby groups were involved. Fair Play for Women was invited as the representative for women and sex-based rights. And so what world rugby wanted to do was really make sure everyone had a voice. Everyone had their say so that they could understand all the sides to the argument and make a good decision.

I was really pleased to see the way that World Rugby tackled this because it is a controversial issue. It's difficult to speak out about. But actually World Rugby understood that they had a duty to their players to make sure the game was as safe as it could be. Because like you say, rugby is a contact sport, catastrophic injuries are a problem in that sport and safety has to be paramount. When it comes to maintaining the integrity of the female category, I think it became very clear when we all looked at the science and the evidence really that transgender women who were born will retain a male advantage in rugby. And for that reason, it was just unsafe and unfair to allow the female category to continue to include male born people at elite level. 

So World Rugby made the decision that for their international games that transgender women will not be allowed to play in the female category because of course they are male the sex of a transgender person who identifies as a woman is still male and they retain the male sex advantage. And so the right place for them to play international level will be in the male category. 

That was the right and fair thing to do, and it was the evidence based decision.

So I think World Rugby did the right thing there. 

Raquel: Does that also work for female athletes? Females who want to play rugby? For trans man, do they get to play in the female category? 

Nicola: A trans man who has not taken any testosterone, is female. And so will be able to play in the the female category.

We don't separate sports on gender identity, so how a female identifies doesn't actually matter to the game of rugby. So yes, trans men will be able to continue playing in the female game, but of course, if they take testosterone as part of their transition, we know that that's a performance enhancing drug, in any other context that would of course be doping. So they're not allowed to play if they take testosterone. World Rugby have said is that if they have a physical assessment to look to see how dangerous it would be for those trans men on testosterone to play in the male game, that they can do so.

But the important point here is that the trans man must sign a waiver to say that he acknowledges that it is a very dangerous sport to play as someone who was born female in the male game. So a trans man can play in the men's game because a trans man doesn't put the men who are playing in that rugby match at risk. And there's not particularly any fairness issue there, either. The risk is taken by the transman himself. 

That's the difference really, when it comes to who takes the risk in a rugby match, if a trans man decides to take that risk, he's taking that risk for himself. But if a trans woman wants to play in a female match, they are not taking the risks themselves. They're putting other people at risk. And that's where policy has to step in and say, that's a risk that you can't put onto other players. So that's why World Rugby have made that particular call.

Raquel: That's quite a leap for Fair Play for Women because you started campaigning in the summer of 2018. And a couple of years later, you're invited to a sit at the table at the World Rugby Association. So, congratulations. It must feel like a whirlwind. 

Nicola: Yeah, it is actually, we have made some incredible progress really over the last two years.

We've not only been invited to the World Rugby meeting; we've actually been invited to meetings by the IOC that's the International Olympic Committee about their trans policy. I've been invited to meetings held by World Athletics about their transgender policy and also Sport England. The other sports councils are also reviewing policies. 

They realise now that women's voices need to be part of the policy making, because I think up until now, it's always been thought that if, if somebody wants to create a trans inclusion policy, then you know, let's just ask trans people. Well, of course that's not, that's not the full picture. Anything to do with sex and gender, there are multiple stakeholders there. 

One thing that's changed over the last two years is that we've now won the argument that, yes, women's voices, sex-based rights, matter in this too.

It's been a hard battle to win, to get heard on that but I think people are now realising that yes, of course, when it's to do with sex and gender, women have a stake in that too. And so there have been increasing numbers of opportunities now where we can be there and speak up for women and girls.

Up until this point, really that's never been happening, no one's been saying, well, hold on a minute, what about how this impacts women and girls? What about their sex-based rights? So it's great to see that policy makers are understanding now the breadth of the conversation that needs to be had because of course it impacts trans people and it impacts women and girls. So we all need to be part of that conversation so that policy makers can be properly informed. 

Raquel: And that conversation is taking place internationally. I mean, it feels like the campaigning groups that came up in 2018, really push the debate into the public consciousness because we're seeing other countries where women are also organising to defend their sex-based rights.

Maybe many of them didn't even know that there was a threat to them so that's very remarkable to witness. 

I want to ask about IOC, the International Olympic Committee in a second, but first I want to touch on England Rugby who made a decision that was diametrically opposed to the World Rugby decision in that they decided that they will allow trans women to play at all levels as long as it is not on an International level, if I understand it correctly. So in essence, they made the decision that for England, they are going against the World Rugby decision how did that come about? 

Nicola: Well, just to put it into context about who World Rugby is, and then who England Rugby is. So World Rugby is the International Federation that has jurisdiction over international games. The world rugby guidelines could only ever have impacted international games. But each country has its own Rugby Union. So there's England Rugby, Welsh Rugby, New Zealand Rugby, all the different rugby playing nations all have their own unions and they make their own rules up for their own domestic games. So any club level matches in England, England Rugby will have jurisdiction over them. 

So what's happened is, World Rugby have looked at all of the evidence and they've decided for their own international games that clearly the evidence is too great to continue with the existing policy of trans inclusion in women's game. And so they have made their ruling.

Now I'm really hoping England Rugby looks again at its decision not to follow. The expectation would be that if World Rugby makes a decision, the national unions would need to really explain why they differ with the conclusion of World Rugby.

They, of course can, because they have their own guidelines. They have their own rules and England Rugby have said that they actually don't agree with World Rugby, the science isn’t clear and so I would hope that they'll be reviewing the science more deeply. They'll be involving groups like Fair Play for Women and also scientists like Dr Emma Hilton and others to really understand what the level of the science is, so that they can make a fair decision here, because at the end of the day, this is about really the safety of women versus the inclusion of trans women into a category that's not designed for them. 

They have to be really careful, I think, the idea that we can carry on ignoring the science is going to be a problem because the catastrophic injuries that can happen in a rugby match, they’re life changing injuries, a woman could break her neck or be paralysed for life. So we can't take chances here.

And although of course, inclusion is great in sport and every sport must be inclusive. Of course it must, but that doesn't mean each category needs to be inclusive. And in fact, by definition, they can't be. They have to be exclusive to the people that it was designed for. 

The simple fact is the female sex category was not designed for males and making exceptions and allowing some males into that category undermines the purpose of the female category itself.

Raquel: Yes. So England Rugby stated that they do not currently want to adopt World Rugby transgender guidelines, as it believes further evidence is required alongside detailed consideration of less restrictive measures in relation to the eligibility of transgender players. 

What kind of further evidence are they referring to?

I mean, it seems to me that it's such a bizarre thing to say that this sports association needs evidence that males have an advantage. It begins in their teenage years and it goes on for life. It's almost like something that it makes you feel as if you're going insane because I think that most people understand the basics behind it.

Nicola: Of course what they're actually talking about here is: we all know that males have a performance advantage over females and I don't think that's ever a disputed anywhere. But what the key question here is, is whether when a trans woman transitions or when a trans woman takes hormones, will they lose that male performance advantage. So if you take a person who's been through male puberty will going on hormones later in life, eliminate and reverse all of the advantage of having gone through that male puberty and we say, well, the science is very clear here that no, it can't be eliminated.

Let me just tell you a little bit of context actually around the science, because there's an interesting irony here. When it was decided that trans women should be included in the female category, that was back in 2004 by the Olympic Committee. And at the time it was around transsexual people. It was people who had had a full removal of their testes. So there was just a handful of people. And so the rule allowed people who had had basically the gender re-assignment surgery to play in the women's game. That was later updated in 2016 to allow people who had been on some kind of testosterone blockers.

Now, those decisions to open up the female category was based on virtually no science whatsoever. At the time, there was just one study that showed that when a male person had gone on testosterone suppression for a year, there was some reduction in muscle area, but certainly not very much.

Now since then, there has now been 11 studies showing trans women on testosterone show about, on average, about 5% reduction in their muscle strength. Now we know that males on average have at least 10 to 50 times performance advantage over females. So it's very clear when you just look at the numbers that the testosterone hormone treatment, the reduction of testosterone in trans women is nowhere near enough to eliminate all of the advantage they got from puberty. And for that reason it's unsafe and if it's unsafe, it's also unfair. 

Raquel: It’s not just testosterone right? I mean, we talk about performance, but when it comes to the male differences between the sexes, we're talking about bone structure and the way that male's hips are constructed and how that gives them an advantage in different sports, like cycling and their lung capacity, like testosterone could be one factor, but there's so many other factors of physiology that just simply don't go away by reducing testosterone.

Nicola: Exactly. I mean, bones don't change. So the width of a trans woman's pelvis doesn't change if they take testosterone suppressants. We know that we don't have to do science to confirm that and you're right, when it comes to something like cycling, women have wider hips than males and wider hips aren't great for cycling. The actual shape and dimensions of the skeleton is an advantage for males in many sports. That's why we have the female category. Sport isn't fully inclusive of women at all. Even now women have fought for generations to be included in sport.

Rugby is a classic example here: it was only in 2006 that the women's rugby game even got included in the Olympics. So that was a full 100 years after the men's game was included. If we look at some of the top rugby playing nations, like New Zealand or Wales or South Africa, only 5% of their elite players are women. It's the same at a domestic level as well in.

 In England where there are about 30,000 club players, only 16% of those are women. So what that tells us in a sport like rugby, rugby, isn't yet fully inclusive of women. If a sport like rugby wants to be serious about including 50% of the population, then women need to have access to a very fair and a safe version of the game and that's why the female category was created in the first place. 

Sports categories in general are ways of including groups that otherwise would not be able to play. You know, we have junior teams to allow children to play because they couldn't play if they had to play against adults.

Likewise, we have female teams because women simply couldn't win or play safely if they played against males. 

So, you know, we've got to remember that we need a category to give women a chance in sport and by eliminating a category, by opening it up and allowing males to play, we're actually excluding women from their own game.

People often say, but we need to include, sport needs to be inclusive. And I say, yes, we need to include women. And there's an awful long way to go yet with that. And we don't do that by taking away a safe and fair mechanism for them to play. 

Raquel: Did you said 16% in rugby? 

Nicola: Yeah. 16% of club players in England are women. We are nowhere near to the 50% level. 

Raquel: That gives you quite a context for these decisions and that's an important key to the conversation. I just find it really bizarre to see testosterone be sort of portrayed as the, be all end all. When we know that there is so much more about our bodies, male and females, that needs to be taken into account.

So you've mentioned the IOC International Olympics Committee. And I want to talk to you about some of the progress or the conversations that are taking place right now in 2020. 

But I want to know if you could take us back to 2004 and the context of how this came about. I mean, surely people whose lives revolve around sports could see the problems generated by mixed sex sports categories. How come they reached that decision in the first place? 

Nicola: Well, I think I like a lot of these things they happened before people really understood what was going on. 2004 was around the same time that the Gender Recognition Act was happening here in the UK. I doubt many members of the public or even policy makers really understood what was really happening back then. And of course back then it was always argued that, well, it's only a few transsexual people and there aren't going to be that many people threatening women in sport.

I wasn't campaigning back then. It passed me by completely. 

But you know, I think a lot of these discussions were rationalised as saying, I think we can tolerate this because it's only a few transsexuals. That was certainly the argument that was put around the GRA and it was certainly will have been what was put around the sport issue.

But of course what's happened since then is there's been a whole massive increase in the number of people that fall under the trans umbrella and actually transsexuals are actually a minority under that. We're actually getting people who are identifying, not having surgery, they're just having hormone treatments and that sort of then opens it up to a huge number of people that could take advantage of the new rules.

And I don't necessarily mean take advantage in terms of exploit them, but I mean that they will qualify as being able to play in the women's game at all levels within sport, we're not just talking international, we're talking about at local club level. Somebody could turn up say they identify as a woman.

They could bring a doctor's note along with them to say that they're on some kind of hormone therapy and they're in, that's all that it takes. 

Whether they are genuine in their desire to identify as a woman almost doesn't matter, the fact that they are there, they're playing against women and they're taking away spaces from women and they're making it unsafe is something that we really do have to grapple with.

Raquel: Yes, absolutely. But even if it was ‘just a couple of people’ when it comes to sports, that has a huge significance in the sports. Because if you have a male person breaking a record in a female category, then that is an impossibility for all the other women who are going to come after that male person. Even if it's just one. You are pushing further the limits to how far the females can go in that sports. And then you're making sure that all the women who come after that have a threshold that they know biologically, they won't be able to meet. 

Nicola: exactly. I mean, there are some classic examples here already in weightlifting.

So we've got Laurel Hubbard who used to weightlift as a man in the male category, has now transitioned and now competes as a woman and he's won medals at Commonwealth games and has beaten very good women. 

Now Laurel Hubbard is a 40-year-old male. No woman would be at the top of her game at the age of 40. So the very fact that Laurel Hubbard can still be competitive at the age of 40 well beyond the age that any serious weightlifter could be competing, it just shows how ludicrous this situation is. So you're right. Laurel Hubbard will be potentially setting records that females simply can't reach.

And as soon as that record is held by a trans woman that then makes it, you know, that's almost an impossible level for a female to reach.

 We've got examples closer to home as well, just a couple of weeks ago. A very promising junior male cyclist called Zach Bridges declared that he now identifies as a woman. So Zach is now Emily Bridges. Now Emily Bridges, we don't know if Emily will be competing it as a woman but the rules allow Emily to do so. But if we look at the performance of Zach, Zach already holds the British record for a junior at cycling 25 miles. So Zach can do 25 miles in 47 minutes.

Now that is faster than the fastest ever British woman. It's taken years for women to be able to break the 50-minute barrier in the 25-mile road race. And at 17 years old Zack bridges was already two minutes faster than the fastest woman. So if Zach chooses, as Emily, to compete, then British records will be a threat here.

Also, on the track at the Velodrome, we know that Zach Bridges has been very fast there. I was just looking this morning at a few figures. Zach actually can race the 3000 meters per pursuit, six seconds faster than the female world record. Now that means that there will be top female cyclists who have a career in cycling, they have records that they can achieve. They have a whole professional life ahead of them. They could be knocked out of the game by someone like Emily, because Emily has male performance advantage. And we know from the research that even if Emily takes testosterone blockers, all of that male advantage won't be eliminated.

So, you know, this is a problem that we could all foresee and it's only going to get worse. There are only ever going to be more people identifying into the women's game. So, when we look back at 2004, I think we could have all foreseen that this would be a problem. And it was really, I would say irresponsible of the IOC at the time, to have not been clear that the female sex category needs to be for the female sex. 

As soon as you start opening that category up and soon as you start making exceptions, women will lose out. And we are now seeing the evidence of that happening right before our eyes now.

Raquel: Yes, and my heart really goes out to the female athletes. We recently at FiLiA did a podcast with Linda Blade, who is in Canada. And something very poignant that she said is that, you know, there may be hope for the little girls who are interested in sports, but for the athletes who are at their prime right now, who are competing under these conditions, it is not a fair playing field.

They are not being given a fair chance in sports. And once you hit your prime, then you don't get that back. 

I'm looking at a quote by England Rugby, and they're saying: we will assess the current evidence alongside safety concerns that have been raised the RFU (England Rugby) will also undertake further consultation with players in the women's game to understand their views.

Is it a democratic space for female athletes? Can they actually voice their concerns? Is it acceptable for a female athlete to state ‘I don't want a trans woman to play in my category’ or are those women subjected to vilification or bullying if they dare to raise their voices? 

Nicola: Yes, they are. I mean, that's another reason that Fair Play for Women, wanted to campaign on this area because actual sports women who are in teams, want sponsorship, want to get picked for teams. You know, their positions are very precarious and if they speak out they risk their future.

We just have to look along in the media at all the people that get vilified for speaking out about this. We've been really lucky that people like Sharron Davies, Martina Navratilova have spoken up on this, but as retired sports women, of course, they feel able to do this, whereas if you are actually competing now, the risk to your career is too great. 

So many sports women and young girls and mothers of girls who play in sport, approach us. They, they speak to us about this problem and say, you know, we need to have our voices heard, but we are scared to do it. We don't know how to do it. 

So when England Rugby says that it wants to consult with women players, it needs to do so in an extremely safe and confidential way. Women need to trust, England Rugby to take their concerns seriously, and to keep it confidential because women are genuinely scared to speak on this issue, particularly in a team game scenario, like rugby, where, you know, if you are the one person on your team that feels, you know, you turn up to a game, there's a trans woman on the other team and you want to say, no, the other players on your team might not like what you're saying, they might want you to be quiet, the manager might take you off the team, you forfeit the game. So it's really difficult for women to speak out properly on this.

I'd say it's also really difficult, even for Fair Play for Women to speak out on this. And that makes it difficult for us to get our information across to the players and the women and girls that play sport because an example is this:

 So, last month while World Rugby were having its deliberations over this, I wanted to post some information on a women's rugby forum, for example, I wanted women to understand what was actually going on, what was being talked about. We weren't allowed to post on that, but at the same time, transgender groups and transgender athletes were allowed to post and they were getting all of the reasons why trans women should be allowed to play which was being aired. But of course the other side of the argument isn't. So we end up with a situation where either women don't know what's going on or women, even if they do know, can't say what's happening. And that's a real problem. 

So that's why we've really called on all the NGBs, including England Rugby, to really work with us, make sure they speak with sports women that have concerns and don't just listen to the loudest voices. You have to actually search them out and understand, give them a safe space to speak and are really hope that that's something that England Rugby takes seriously in the next few months when it looks at this policy. 

Raquel: Well, hopefully I sincerely hope that they do, but it kind of makes you question how sincere they are, because right after the statement saying ‘we will consult with players in the women's game to understand their views.’ They state right after the RFU in England Rugby is committed to LGBTQ plus inclusion, as well as safety and fairness across all levels of the game.

So it kind of sends a message that perhaps their commitment to inclusion trumps their commitment to the safety of the female players. And that's such a disheartening thing do. The example that you point out about the forum, women are allowed to receive information about the benefits or the talking points for why they have to be inclusive of their game, but not to the arguments in favour of single sex sports. 

Nicola: The issue of inclusion, I mean, of course sports need to be inclusive. Nobody should be alienated from sports or prevented from playing but people can't always play in the category that they're not meant to play in. If you don't belong in a category, you can't play in it.

You often see headlines around the rugby issue saying that trans women have been banned from rugby. And of course they haven't been, they've only been excluded from the female category. They are perfectly entitled to play in the male category that is appropriate to them. So trans women can play.

We have a great example in cricket actually, where there's a cricketer called Maxine Blythin, and if we look at the records and the results of, of Maxine, Maxine has been known to play in the male team on a Saturday, and then in the female game on a Sunday. So actually trans women don't have an inclusion issue, you know, they can actually play anywhere. 

We've got to really challenge this concept of that not allowing trans women into the female game is about inclusion because it's not, it excludes women from their own category. We'd need the female category to be safe and fair for women, to include women.

I hope that that England Rugby, if they're committed to inclusion, they're committed to the inclusion of women as well, and that it's about understanding how to make the sport inclusive, but not by destroying the integrity of the categories. 

Why are women being asked to expand their female category for members of the opposite sex? Why aren't the men being asked to expand their category, to include people of other gender identities? Because actually it's the men's team that needs to be more welcoming and inclusive of other males who have a different gender identity. So, there are lots of different ways to solve this problem, but it seems to be only one is ever looked at and that's that women need to move over. Women need to make room and that's not right, because the inclusion of one group should never be at the expense of the inclusion of another underrepresented group. And we certainly shouldn't be ignoring clear performance differences between those two groups. 

Raquel: Yes. I wonder if you had any updates on the IOC since 2004, has there been some progress on this issue? 

Nicola: Well, 2004 was the inclusion of transsexuals who've had gender re-assignment, but 2016 was when they changed that to allow people who had been on testosterone suppression. They've been reviewing their policy and we are still waiting for any sort of official outcome there.

But my understanding is that the IOC guidelines will be, rather than having a one rule fits all. It will be that each Sports Federation will be able to have its own rules, its own sport specific rules. And I think that was one of the reasons why World Rugby then went on to see if it needed any specific rules just for rugby and of course from that, we've now had the, the ban. 

So I think there'll be a move for all the international federations to be looking at their own games and generating their own evidence base rather than it being something that the IOC does, but we'll just need to wait and see.

Raquel: Do you think that that is fair because the way that I see it, there won't be an international sort of top down directive, but if you leave it up to every single sports, number one, and then maybe every country that works for that sport to make those decisions. Doesn't that give more leeway to lobbies, particularly to trans lobbies, to try to influence on a local level? Doesn't that give them more room to manoeuvre? 

Nicola: Well, it does. I mean, it would be great if a body like the IOC could take a leadership position in this and say - the female sex category, what's the purpose of it. do we still need it? And if we do, it needs to be maintained as female only.

So this could be sorted out at the top level. The further down you go, the more complicated it gets. We have to deal with what we've got and I think the IOC isn't being particularly ….  it's like most institutions, nobody wants to touch this with a barge pole. They want to just head in the sand, see if there are any problems down the road, so while we are all pointing out the problems they're kind of ignoring us really. 

I’m not that hopeful that the IOC will be the leader here, but the fact that World Rugby did take a really strong position on this gives me hope actually, that there are sensible people within sports policy that understand that you can't take a risk with women's safety.

You know, what World Rugby have done, this is the first example in a sport where they have reversed their trans inclusion policy to say that trans women can't now play in the female game. Now that is just one sport and it's just an international level and there's an awful long way to go. But it is the first, in principle decision based on the evidence. And I just hope that that is a signal to all of the other national governing bodies that it can be done. It can. The evidence can be analysed and a clear, fair decision can be reached and I really hope that other people follow on from this.

Raquel: Yes, so you definitely spent a lot of time thinking about this issue and speaking with so many people about this issue of sports.

On a broader level, why do you think that there is this insistence to mix them together? 

Nicola: Yeah, well, it all goes back to the mantra of ‘trans women are women’.

Therefore, trans women should be involved in women's sport. But you know, when it comes to a policy where sex matters, sex has to take a priority over someone's gender identity. Now it doesn't mean that someone's gender identity is not important or that their lived experience isn't valid. All of those things can still stand. Nobody is saying that a trans woman shouldn't be free to identify as a woman when they play sport, but the sex of that individual has to be the deciding factor when it comes to which category they go into because it's sex that matters in sport.

We play sport with our bodies, you know, so the type of body you have matters, how you identify your personal sense of self is irrelevant. So trying to say that trans women are women, therefore they should play women's sport is more about validation rather than the actual understanding of how sport works and how categories work and the reason for having those categories.

One thing that I really hope happens in the future, the more we talk about this is that there needs to be an acceptance that some people feel that they have a gender identity and that's fine, but that's not the same as their sex. And it has to be okay to say that trans women are members of the male sex, no matter how they identify or what medications they take, they will always be members of the male sex.

I don't say that to be offensive to trans women. I say that because it's important when it comes to sex-based policy making. I've actually been in policy meetings, I've been there as a stakeholder representative, there to represent the sex-based rights of women and so I will obviously be talking about the difference between male sex and female sex.

I've actually been told in a meeting that I must not say that trans women are male. Now, when I'm in that meeting, I absolutely refuse to concede that because if I'm there to talk about sex-based rights, the most fundamental language that I can use to describe sex-based rights has to be someone's sex, either people are male or female and trans women are male, that is why there's an issue. That's why there's a fairness and safety issue with sports. And if we can't say that we can never really understand the concerns of women and girls. It shouldn't be a problem in a policy meeting to be able to speak facts.

Trans women are male, that is a neutral statement. It's not and it shouldn't be offensive. When I walk down the street, I'm not going to be shouting trans women are men every five minutes because there's no need for me to do that. But in a policy meeting, when someone's sex matters to that policy, we have to be able to say it.

And so that's where I am. We really need to hold the line in policy meetings and say, policy makers must work with the truth. And that truth is trans women are members of the male sex, simple as that. 

Raquel: Nicola. What has been the response to your campaigning to you personally? 

Nicola: Well, as most women who put their head above the parapet on this issue, we get abuse.

I've had emails, some abusive emails, that have come through. But to be honest, it’s water off ducks back now because what we are doing is right. I'm called a transphobic bigot, but I'm not, people that know me know that I'm not. There's a clear rationale as to why women are concerned about sex-based rights. I think it's only right and fair that women have that voice. I've decided that I want to be part of that, making sure that voice gets heard. 

I'm in a relatively fortunate position where I don't have, for example, I don't have children. I don't have a family that I need to be careful or protective of. I've got less to lose than some other women. 

Three years ago when I got into this issue and it, I realised it was a problem that women couldn't speak out. I decided to get involved because I thought, do you know what? I can do something here. A lot of women can't, I want to do something.

So, yeah, I get flack for it. I get a lot of abuse for it, but I know that I'm doing the right thing and I hope that one day we get past this awful phase where people can be throwing around the concept of being transphobic, just for sticking up for women, we need to get past that.

And the only way we will is for women to keep talking about it and each woman that does, I'm hoping encourages another woman to do the same, and eventually this will become something we can all talk about. 

I'm really glad to be part of that and doing what I can to be part of that change. 

Raquel: That abuse is absolutely unacceptable no matter who it’s being levelled against.

 But it's unfortunate that so many women have to, particularly women, have to go through this. 

So do you have hope for the future in regards to the sports issue? Do you see the tide turning? Or are we a little far off?  

Nicola: Well, do you know, I am hopeful because there's a lot of conversations going on behind the scenes. People are getting interested in this. People from different sports, policy makers from different sports getting contact with us now. They want help. They want some assistance to understand how to negotiate through this, how to navigate through this complex area.

We've generated a lot of resources over the last year or so to help policy makers understand the law and understand the science. I'm actually hearing an increased appetite for grappling with this issue. 

I know that Sport England are doing a review of their policy. Most other sports’ national governing bodies are looking at their own policies. So that's a shift forward. It's not going to happen overnight. But the fact that World Rugby have made their stance is a huge milestone in the journey really and so I'm hopeful that bit by bit we will be able to sort these policies out.

It’s going to take time and Fair Play for Women are having to be in this for the long term now and I think over time, things will start to change. 

But I think that we can't put the genie back in the bottle now. When people understand that there's a problem in sport where male people are playing the female game, People intuitively know that that's wrong. And as soon as they find that out, they say, no, that's not fair. That's not safe. So people can't un-know what they now know. 

And so over time public awareness will rise and policies will start to change. So I think we just need to keep going, have faith, keep going for it, keep talking about it. Certainly at Fair Play for Women, we are on this, we're not going to let this go because this is an important topic that we want to win and we will. 

Raquel: Yeah. To the delight of the people who don't like your work. You're like, no, no, we're in this for the long haul. We're not going anywhere.

Nicola: And actually Raquel, if I could just be cheeky and just promote our crowdfunder actually, because one part of this in all seriousness is the support of the public to keep us going. I've actually been working on this now for three years’ full time for free.

It's a huge commitment really to anyone to do all this work and we've had to do it because there were no other groups, no other funded groups, no other women's groups with staff that get paid to do this, so ordinary women had to step forward, but to keep going, we do need public support.

I hope that our record of past achievements will give people the confidence that their donations will really be converted to real life policy changes. We can do this now. I'm hoping that if people just Google us, they'll see our crowdfunder on our website.

If you can please donate to keep us to keep us going. 

Raquel: Yes, I was going to ask you about that. The crowdfunder is called Fairplay for Women Needs your Support. 

 I have a final question for you, but since we're in the topic, what is next for Fair Play for Women, maybe even beyond the sports issue, what is on your horizon as an organisation?

Nicola: Well, another piece of work that we're doing a fair bit of work on at the moment is around Language. I think it's absolutely fundamental that the sex-based language remains sayable and understandable. So we've been doing a lot of work with ipso, which is the the press regulator in the UK.

We've been seeing lots of newspapers with headlines saying things like ‘woman caught with animal porn’ for example, but then you find out that actually that's not a woman at all. That is a male person. Of course. It's very rare for a woman to be committed for a sexual crime, but it's of course relatively commonplace for a sex offender to be male. So what we are arguing to the press regulator is that for reasons of public interest and accuracy, newspapers really do need to be very clear when they use sex-based language, like the word woman that they are using it in a way that people understand.

So we don't want to see those headlines that says ‘woman rapes man.’ when actually that woman was male and so I'm really hoping that we can do some work changing the guidelines for the press so that the press can report accurately. 

We are in a ridiculous situation at the moment where nobody is reporting accurately and using the word woman when they actually mean men and so we want that to change. 

So we've done a lot of complaints, we've done a written submission to a consultation that they're doing, we've spoken to the chairman about this and the head of complaints. So I'm hoping there'll be more that we can talk about in the future on that because we really want that to change. 

We've also been working with the ONS office of national statistics who are preparing for their census for next year, in which they'll be asking people, are they male or female? They ask this question every year, they've done so ever since the census.

But there is now a dilemma over whether that question should be your self-identified sex or your actual sex. And of course we are arguing strongly that, of course it must be your actual birth sex. The census now will also include another question asking for your gender identity. So it's not that trans people can't have their gender identity recorded.

It must always be okay to ask someone what their sex is and expect to get an accurate answer and so for reasons of good data collection, we're working with a lot of academics to make sure that the ONS does not include a self-identified sex question and that it's very clear that it's about birth sex. 

There's a lot of extra work going on behind the scenes. Really. It's not just sport. Sport is what we are most well known for but we speak on and engage on virtually all issues where someone's sex-based rights matters and so there'll be there'll be a lot to keep us going over the next few years. That's for sure.  

Raquel: Yes, that's wonderful news.

 So my final question to you, Nicola, and thank you so much for spending time with us at FiLiA podcast. My final question to you is what would you say to a girl or young woman who is very passionate about sports. And I mean, as you know, I don't know if you personally really love sports, but I do. I love that it teaches you to trust yourself. It teaches you skills. It teaches you about your strength, there's so much to gain from it, but what would you say to a girl or a young woman who is so keen to play, but is watching international organisations or organisations like sports organisations who are essentially saying to her that they're not prioritising the fairness of the sport to her and she feels disheartened. What would you say to those girls and women who are looking at the context, the political arena on this, and she feels disheartened. 

Nicola: Well, I would say, make contact with Fair Play for Women, make contact with me. Talk to me about it.

We want to get a group of women and girls to start to complain but they need the safety to do that through an organisation, like Fair Play for Women. So, don't be disheartened because there are people working on your behalf and you can be part of that so please get in touch.

 You are dead right though, Raquel, about what sport means for women and girls, because it's not just about winning it's about body confidence. It's about, a sense of female unity, even, a female team is a great experience. We don't want girls to miss out on that. Even if it's not a competitive level, even at a recreational level, it matters if something's female only.

A really good example here is British cycling who have some recreational bike rides where people can turn up and go on a bike ride with a group of people and it's called Let's Ride. It's a great thing that they do there to encourage people to get more active. 

Now, alongside that they also have a female only bike ride that's called Breeze. Now, the reason they have female only is because they have understood that women and girls sometimes prefer a female only environment for whatever reason. They choose not to have a mixed sex activity. They want female only. What we've now found out is that Breeze is now allowing males who identify as women to join that recreational cycling event. Now that completely undermines the point of a woman choosing to have female only.

So we are not just fighting to make sure competitive sports are fair and safe for women. But actually even at the recreational level, if something says female only and a woman chooses it, it needs to be female only. She doesn't want to go and find a male there and so we want to make sure that that kind of thing doesn't happen as well.

So we're actively working with other women, other cyclists who want to speak to British cycling about this and, and get that policy changed. 

So, basically if you are a woman or a girl who enjoys sport, talk about it, talk about it to your friends. Actually what you'll find is, is when you do talk about it, if you're brave enough to talk about it, everyone agrees with you.

It's a bit of a myth really that everyone thinks you're transphobic. People know that in sport sex matters so be brave, talk about it, make contact with us, follow us. let's make sure that the national governing bodies that the people involved in sport know that women want female only, and that they need to deliver that for us because it's something that we want and we need it.

And so there's no excuses, female only sport has to continue and it has to mean female only. 

Raquel: Well, thank you very much, Nicola, is there anything that you would like to share with our audience before we wrap up? 

Nicola: I think we've covered more or less everything on the sports issue.

Thank you for inviting me on, it's been nice to be able to, to have the space actually to talk about this in detail, because of course, most of the time we get a short quote in a newspaper or 30 seconds on a radio or TV interview, and it's really difficult to get into the details.

So I'm really hoping that this has been interesting for people to listen and to understand all that's going on behind the scenes, around the sports issue. 

Raquel: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Dr Nicola Williams from Fairplay for Women.

 Do check out their website. We're going to put all the links on the page and also if you can please contribute to their Crowdfunder.

So thank you everyone. We will continue this conversation about sports in the coming times.