#92

Raquel Rosario Sanchez from FiLiA in conversation with Vaishnavi Sundar

Film maker of: But What Was She Wearing?

Raquel: Hello everyone. Welcome to the FiLiA podcast. This mission is a world free from patriarchy where all women and girls are liberated. Our mission is to contribute to the women's liberation movement by building sisterhood and solidarity, by amplifying the voices of women and by defending human rights. Today we are absolutely over the moon to host this podcast with none other than Vaishnavi Sundar.

She was born in 1986. She's an independent filmmaker and a women's rights activist from Chennai India. She founded Women Making Films and Lime Soda Films. She produced India's first feature length documentary [shot by an all-women crew], which was titled: But What Was She Wearing. The documentary examines the nature of workplace sexual harassment by speaking to both lawmakers as well as the people for whom some such laws are made.

What constitutes a workplace? What happens if a harasser is your employer? What are the policies in the rights of women? And how are the governing bodies responding? But what she tackles is the juxtaposition of policies versus the reality and hopes to tell the tales of crimes that have gone unpunished and unreported.

Welcome Vaishnavi. How are you? 

Vaishnavi: Oh, I'm so well, thank you so much for this wonderful introduction. It's such a pleasure to talk with you and be associated in any shape or form with FiLiA. It's my pleasure and privilege. 

Raquel: Well, we feel absolutely excited to have you with us. So, take us a little bit back.

How did Vaishnavi come to be as this feminist form and filmmaker. What came first, the filmmaking, the passion for filmmaking or the feminism? 

Vaishnavi: I think it was a little bit of both here and there, but I would say where I am right now, is my most optimum, and I wish I had arrived here many, many years ago.

So you can say that there were versions of feminism and versions of me that enjoyed films in a way that I might not enjoy today. Back when I was starting to make films, perhaps a lot of things, I would just excuse it as, you know, just entertainment and things like that. But today I'm a completely renewed woman who can't tolerate any form of misogyny or violence against women.

So in a way, my childhood and my upbringing sort of made me question a lot of different micro-aggressions within the family. But over a period of time, having spent a lot of time working with corporate organisations, working within the filmmaking fraternity, and then later on working as a writer, as a freelancer, and everything sort of contributed little by little to the person that I have become today. 

And you can say that when I founded Women Making Films, it is a community for female filmmakers from around the world. It now has members from about 20 countries and I'm expanding and the community is growing and it's doing very well. 

It was this one point in time when during the time of Women Making Films (WMF) doing well, this one friend of mine had asked me, back when I was a liberal I had thought that that's the only kind of feminism to know, and I was coming from a very, very oppressed sort of a family. So for me, liberal feminism seemed like hot cake. So I picked it up and I thought Oh wow! These words mean so much. These words, like patriarchy, misogyny, was just throwing them around, words that I had known from when I was a baby or something. But gradually I had realised, and it is because of this friend of mine, on my WMF page, I had written this one particular introduction to what it is, and in that I had mentioned that women making films is a community for women. And I'm so ashamed to say this, but back then I had written: ‘and those who identify as women.’ Okay. And a friend of mine one day asked me, ‘so does that mean men?’ That's all he asked me. And I removed it first thing. 

And it's like, trust me, it's like as if there are so many women like me who get so, taken by liberal feminism and all they need was just this one question that makes you really introspect. But until that time, because the world is filled with people like them, you just feel like you fit in. You just feel like that's the right thing to do. Accept everybody, accept oppression if that's what the woman wants, because that's her choice and things like that. So gradually when I started seeing things from a perspective of a woman only like adult, human, female exclusively. Then so many problems within the liberal feminism, the discourse, came to light. This happened a few years ago, so when that light bulb sort of went off on my head, since then, there has been no stopping.

Suffice to say that I have removed that line from the website many, many years ago. 

Raquel: Well thank you for sharing that, but let's pause there. So what do you mean by liberal feminism? I 100% relate to everything that you're describing, but what about, like, I'm thinking of the audience who may not be particularly well-versed in like the different terms.

What do you mean when you say liberal feminism? 

Vaishnavi: Liberal feminism is a form of discourse that is materialising in the present day. At least in the present day, postmodern world where women are made to believe that everything is a matter of choice. Therefore, what's happening is there are a lot of people, mostly men, who sort of benefit from this position that most women take. 

So what happens is in liberal feminism, I believe that religion, all forms of religion is oppressive to its women. So for example, when I was talking to this friend of mine about a lot of women wearing hijab and finding that to be sort of empowerment or liberation or something like that, I found that to be a little confusing because how is that considered to be liberation when they were finding it difficult to even sip coffee in a public space in a mall. 

So I found all those things a little conflicting to what we consider to be feminism. Feminism is supposed to be freeing and empowering, but in liberal feminism, I found that women were taking on more shackles than freeing themselves from the existing shackles.

So liberal feminism is also very ‘sex positive’ as they call it. So they are okay with pornography because apparently that's the woman's choice and apparently she finds it empowering. Therefore, everybody should support her. Liberal feminists also find prostitution to be empowering because apparently that gives her economic independence, therefore, all the women that are there without any agency or were pimped into it, or were trafficked into it, also don't have any agency. Just because a few of these elite ones believe that, they have control over when they can prostitute themselves and when they cannot. Therefore, they call it sex work. And that liberal feminism believes to be empowering. 

Liberal feminism also believes that women, the biological sex class of female, it's very, very mired because they believe that a woman is anybody who feels like a woman or who identifies like a woman, which I find to be absolutely gross because there are so many experiences that a woman goes through from the moment she was born, especially in developing countries. You and I would completely understand where we, for us, our survival is at stake because we are born of this sex class. From the moment we are born to the day we die, there is all kinds of oppression coming from all sorts of angles and whatever job we choose, whatever career we aspire to do, there is sexism, there is misogyny, there is just problems, endless problems. 

So when we counter that and then we counter all our clinical problems, like our periods, all our postpartum depression, childbirth and clinical issues that women face that are gynaecological in nature and things like that, and somehow none of those things matter because some dude believes that he feels like a woman one day and then he wakes up and feels like that and therefore he becomes a woman. And I, an actual woman, should accept it otherwise I'm a bigot. 

So these were all the things that really irked me back when I was trying to fit in, trying to find my crowd and everything. And gradually what is called as liberal feminism today, I realised that I don't want to touch it even with a barge pole. I run away anywhere run away from any communion that is mostly constituted of liberal feminism where they will be talking about how legalising prostitution is the best thing that can happen to some girl who was hijacked from West Bengal.

Raquel: Yeah, that's the grim reality. I mean, what you just said right there, that is the grim reality of women, a lot of women, too many women in the global south, and I think that, I really appreciate your perspective on this issue because liberal feminism has essentially sort of hijacked the movement and is imposing all of these concepts and theories which have no application to the lived realities, to the material realities of women and girls who come from countries like your country, my country. And, and that's why feminism is such an important, pivotal moment right now so thank you for sharing that.

So let's go back a little bit. You were mentioning the concept of choice, and I wonder how you tackled that sort of perspective, that sort of narrative, how everything is a woman's choice and if a woman's chooses it, then this is empowering. How did you tackle that in your film: But What was she Wearing?

Vaishnavi: I think for the most part, at least the educated social media using Indians, when they, when they make such very generalised large scale assumptions about how you should leave a woman to decide what she wants. If she thinks that staying in an abusive marriage is for her, you should just let her be.

Or if a woman likes to be choked during sex, you should just let her be because that is what she has chosen for herself and things like that. I think I just completely detached myself from this educated urban dwelling class of feminism. 

I used to have a corporate job and I quit cold turkey and I just started making films.

And ever since I've done that, I have completely given myself, my time, my energy, everything to organisations that are working with the grassroots women, women that probably don't know how to read, don't know how to operate a smartphone, don't even possess a smartphone. So when I aligned myself with organisation and contribute in whatever modest way that I could. When I started aligning myself with these organisations that are working with grassroots women, I realised that there is so much more to this world than these few idiots on Twitter who keep claiming choice, choice, on their social media. 

What I've also learned is that if I as a privileged woman belonging to a reasonably upper class and born into an upper caste family and educated, I am not afraid. I am very, very free willed. I can get through a day without anybody bothering me. But these are all privileges, not a lot of women have. So I exclusively work with organisations that work with women in the rural areas. So when I worked with them, the myth was completely busted to me.

There is no choice in oppression. There is no choice in exploitation. There is no choice in being a secondary citizen to men in this country, given that every six hours or every five hours there is a rape happening in India. I think it is fair to say that there is absolutely no choice in being a woman in India at all.

You know, there is no choice in opting for modern lingos like BDSM or sex work or watching pornography and enjoying it, finding it empowering and liberating. All those things did not make sense to me because I saw first-hand what women are going through in the grassroots and in the rural areas.

And that was like a huge slap on my face because I didn't for the most part that there is so much more to this world than sitting behind your laptop and looking at few people rambling on Twitter. There is so much more to this country and there is so much more to be worked for, to be fought for than, hassle yourself with fighting with these teenage idiots who keep shouting, keep calling you a bigot, because I say that there is no choice in wearing a hijab or I say that there is no choice in being a prostitute in Forkland Road in Bombay where a woman is born into the brothel and dies in the brothel and lives in a four by six room for the entire life and serves like about 20 or 30 men every night. There is no choice there whatsoever. And with all of that in perspective, I made the film to be a representation of women belonging to so many different demographic they are representative of religion, caste, region, and you know, the types of industries that they are working for, organised sector, unorganised sector, women who do manual, menial labour, and then women who are CEOs, women politicians.

I have realised, in the three years that I spent making this film, I realised that we are united because of our oppression. And while there may be so many different reasons that separate us, that give us some privilege and deprives us of some privilege, one thing that unites us is the oppression. And if these people are going to wish that away as choice, I think that is just gross violation of human rights, I would think. Because you can't just wish away oppression by saying that ‘No, no, no. It is her choice.’ It's just spineless and I think that needs to be called out. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind when people say choice, what they mean by it.

I don't mince words to even say this to people. They are just toothless and they want to stand behind their computer and not do anything. And they will also deter you from doing an actual work because they believe that you might prove them wrong. 

Raquel: Yeah. And I appreciate that you don’t mince words and you're very sort of bold in speaking about the material realities that are facing women and girls around the world.

I mean, you said something so powerful. There is no choice in oppression. There is no choice in exploitation. You cannot wish away oppression. That is such a powerful message to share with us at FiLiA and with our audience. 

 I want to know a little bit about the process of your filmmaking.

How was the process for you as a filmmaker in India, shooting: But What Was She Wearing? Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Vaishnavi:  Of course, I did not go to a film school and teach myself formally film education or anything like that. So what I know is what I perceive as common sense. I want to capture something. I need a few things and I make those few things available. And I make a few people that are feeling as strongly as I do about a subject together as a team and mostly, not mostly, every time, they're all women. So the film that we are talking about, But What Was She Wearing was made by an all-female crew.

And I spent a significant number of days and months in obsessing over finding the right team because once you do that, I think half the job is done. Making them all female is in itself a good thing because this subject is something that really every woman in the country would relate to. So I made sure that I wasn't going to just find a way to just get some guy to shoot it. Like after all, it's just interviews of women talking. No, it's not that it matters to me so much that I picked my crew members very, very carefully. 

Shooting in itself was extremely difficult because during the research process, there were so many women that spoke to me about all the oppression that they face, all the exploitation and abuses that they had to experience in their workplace, but none of them could speak on camera.

And while I decided to make this film, I decided that I'm not going to have anybody speak on my film anonymously. If they are speaking, they're going to show their face as something that I decided. I have absolutely nothing against people that are remaining anonymous, of course they have their own reasons and I have talked about it in the film as well.

But it is just that I often end up listening to many men or mostly people in positions, things like, well, if only women came forward and complained more, maybe things would be better for you, but women are just so scared. They're so scared to talk about these things. It's all, it's just that, it's just if only they could speak up.

So this was my way of proving to all those idiots that it is not about women choosing to speak up or not speaking up. It is about how toothless the system is that is in place, whether or not a woman is going to speak up, whether the system is going to help her. Whether she's going to benefit from the system, that is the question.

So anyway, I decided to have all these women speak directly in front of the camera. It's not like suddenly the situation of workplace sexual harassment in India has changed just because these many women have spoken up so clearly their assumptions about if only women spoke up was just some, shortcut for them to just escape from owning up to the problems that we face in India, women especially.

So money was, again, a huge problem. I did not raise enough money because there is speculation within the country about whether or not they can support such a project, because clearly in my messaging and while raising funds, I was making it important that I was talking about male violence against women.

So a significant percentage of people were a little sceptical to donate for it because they were like, ‘oh, well, even women harass men. Oh, but what about women who file false cases’ and things like that. Again, those things are addressed in the film, so you can imagine when I hadn't even begun filming yet, I had all these roadblocks.

I couldn't afford to get the best equipment. I couldn't afford to pay my crew members as much as they would've made in a commercial setup, and yet they agreed to do it. So many people helped me out by giving me their homes as space and I had to travel to different cities because this is not just made in my city for convenience. And it's not just the upper class women that I know that have spoken in the film, right. There are about 30 something women that have spoken and all of them are from different parts of India. So there are so many costs involved and so many things that a filmmaker would need, something a commercial filmmaker would have a producer for, and a producer would arrange for everything.

But a project like this, which I single-handedly shouldered and nurtured and brought to life, I had none of it. I managed to complete this film purely based on the goodwill of some people who opened up their homes and their offices for me to use for free. Some of the people, these women that decided to speak in my film, despite having so many troubles within their organisation and just the pure conviction with which these women spoke in my film was reason enough for me to go through with this ordeal. Over and over again. 

None of these women cried on camera and none of these women even needed to cry on camera. They were talking about something that happened to them in a way that enraged them, in a way that persuaded other women to be enraged about something, that if something like that happens to them. So I was forced to make sure that I complete this film because the women were asking me to when they spoke in the film, the way they women on camera, the women on camera were asking me to finish it because it is so wrong if a woman is telling me about her exploitation and how a man harassed her and how a man groped her and things like that, and that I can just neglect the project like that because I did not have film or my mental illness was at stake. I was not going to have any of that. 

So somehow I grit my teeth and the trouble is, while you are working on a film, while you are explaining cases that are currently going on, there are newer cases and you hear about them and it feels like an endlessly defeatist process.

It feels like why bother making these films? It's not like these men are ever going to learn their lesson and stop harassing women. It's never going to happen. We are not going to change the world. And why bother? You know, I sort of go into that corner every time some new instance happens and somehow, I had to sort of muster up the courage thinking that, well, it is not about what's going to happen in India, but maybe it is about that one girl who thinks that maybe it's not her fault, maybe I should make the film for her. It only feels right, or something like that. I would just justify all the hesitations I had, all the anger I had, and somehow get through with the film and it took three years to finish, and it's now there for the world to watch 

Raquel: That there are women out there who are fighting for other women, and that there are women who are willing to go on camera even though, you know, they could face anything. They could face backlash, they could face any sort of bad reaction, negative reaction from their community, from their friends, from their family. But they were so willing to speak out for other women that they were pushing you as the filmmaker to move forward and, and that's so powerful. 

So what did you find when speaking with them, what did you find about work harassment in India through the filming this documentary?

Vaishnavi: I realised that there is absolutely not a single category of women that men leave out. You can be a CEO, you can face harassment, you can be a woman who is a menial construction labourer and you can face harassment. So if there is one thing that I learned very, very strongly about having made this film is that exploitation runs horizontally, vertically, and if there is any other way, in any other direction, that it can flow, it flows in all those directions as well.

There is absolutely no out for a woman. So you may be a CEO, you may be more privileged than hundreds and thousands of other women that probably would kill for a position like that for money like that. But even then, even within that privileged position, you are still under a check under the thumb of a man who might abuse you. Who might think that you don't deserve to be in such a higher position, therefore give you a hard time. 

It's not like I haven't faced it either. So all that these women are saying are versions of what happened to me, what happened to my friends, and so when I was making it, when I was recording their interviews, I had to really try not to get taken by it, I have to keep the focus on the film. I have to be objective. I have to make sure that I get them to speak all the important things and all of that. So it was very, very difficult to keep that objectivity while actually she's narrating what happened to her. If it is a rape or if it is some sort of sexual violation when she's narrating it to me, I have to really grit my teeth and I have to tell her, okay, then what happened? Then what happened? What did you do? How do you feel? Those things were very, very difficult because it's bordering on voyeurism, right? So I also had to be very, very careful in making sure that these women that I have picked to speak in my film are absolutely comfortable in their skin around me and that I spent a long, long time talking to them for hours convincing them that they can trust me and that we are all women inside the room and that they can speak freely. 

I'm glad I spent all that labour in making sure that they felt comfortable because only because of that, the things that they have spoken and the things that I have finally recorded in the film are just so powerful.

It's not just lip service. It's not just saying, ‘yeah, okay, I was harassed, but he's still in the office. Yeah. That's what happened,’ it's not that. They're talking to me with conviction, with grit. They're talking to me like they mean business and they're not going to leave that man alone, they're going to fight this case and things like that.

One unique thing that I noticed across the board is that even though these women are progressive working in organisations and are educated and things like that. One common thing I noticed also is, while they are narrating information about sexual abuse situation, a sort of an awkward situation at workplace. I find that all of these women ended up trying to clarify to me that they tried to stop it even though they need not have to, but all of them somehow felt it important to tell me that, ‘Hey, he came to hug me, but that hug never happened.’ So while I did not recognise it while I was filming them, when I was editing them, these things just became so jarring and I had to consciously make sure that I remove all aspects of them trying to explain themselves, you know, because it's not important. 

The fact that that man abused them or even attempted to abuse them was reason enough for us to be angry. Whether or not she tried to do anything to stop it is immaterial, she need not, she couldn't have. So those were all my very, very weird learnings in the process of making this film.

Raquel: They're very important learnings, you know, because I think as women, it's like we're so socialised and you get this message sort of from the moment that you're born. Like the most important thing is that you are not raped. The most important thing is that you're not assaulted, that you're not abused, that you're not harassed.

And then when it happens, it's almost like the burden is on the woman to prove that she did everything that she could to prevent it instead of, well, actually, there was someone who was doing the harm and that wasn't her. So I can see where they were coming from. 

So, what was the reception to your film?

What was the reception to, But What Was She Wearing? 

Vaishnavi: It was mixed reaction. I have screened it within my city and within different cities within India. And I have screened it in few places outside of India as well. Mostly everybody is just so numb and depressed at the end of the film, unfortunately.

I don't blame them because a film is like that. It's like basically 30 women standing in front of you and saying that they were abused. They were abused, they were abused the entire time. So it makes for a very, very hard watch. So that way perhaps in the first viewing, not a lot of people are able to articulate their true experience of what they felt while watching it.

But after a few times or after a few nights of sleeping on the stuff that was spoken in the film, a lot of people have gotten in touch with me saying how all the things that they used to believe have shattered. And men especially, they said, I don't know if I can even say this to you because I didn't do anything to you, but I am just so sorry on behalf of all men that this is the state of affairs that Indian women are facing right now.

You know, those sort of heartfelt comments from some of my male friends and many, many young girls came up to me and they said things like, you know, it happened to me, but I was just feeling so horrible. But after having seen your film, it feels after all, it was not my mistake at all. And parents who had their children face such discrimination in their office who had to forcefully quit their jobs are now rethinking. Maybe she shouldn't have quit the job after all because it was not her fault to begin with. 

And many little micro-aggressions. That's the reason why I even named the film like that, because when you talk about how you were harassed, they look at you top down. Oh. So, you know, in India people wear the Salwar Kameez or the little cloth that sort of covers your breast mostly, it's called a dupatta. And mostly, in Indian workspaces you would find that women wear that. But I have noticed that people say, even women, ‘you never wear a dupatta, what do you expect to happen?’

You know, things like that. So the very reason I kept the film's name, But What Was She Wearing was because our first impulse is to turn around and ask the girl, maybe she did something wrong to get harassed. And the reception after my film ends has often been very, very heart breaking and eye-opening for many of the girls, especially girls who are probably not as outspoken as I am, but are affected by it quietly, but are just fighting the system but unable to do anything because they can't. 

Not everybody can take on a boss and fight with them and everything because our livelihood as is at stake. If you say something, you'd be afraid that they might harass you even more or maybe fire you or then you won't have any money.

There are so many other aspects that women have to consider before speaking up about the harassment that they're facing. But these girls, even though they come to me and they say, you know what, I might never do anything about this guy who's harassing me other than avoiding him, but at least now I feel grateful that I'm not doing anything wrong. It's just that he's an arse-hole. 

Those things are very, very gratifying. But I should also admit that while all these educated, urban dwelling women are saying all these things, the film must be truly watched by people belonging to the rural communities and the unorganized sectors. Women who are probably not literate at all, you know, they are the ones that are supposed to watch it because at least the people belonging to urban areas are educated and are aware that there is a police station, they can go and make a complaint. They can write a complaint, they can coherently explain themselves and become part of a crime statistic in the country. But that's not the same for women belonging to rural areas who can't even read or write.

They probably won't even identify harassment as harassment because for them, some guy coming and rubbing off of her is just like one minor inconvenience because there are so many other problems. She has to go home to a drunk husband who might rape her, who might beat her. There are children to feed and there is contraception that is not available and 

Raquel: Because it's so normalised. Because it is so normalised that these are the things that women have to put up with. These are the things that that happen to women. So it's sort of like you have to step out of that normalisation, that socialisation that women receive, that it's like, this is what happens when you're a woman. To sort of see, well, actually no, that was unacceptable. 

Vaishnavi: Yep, you're right. And this is only the case of women belonging to the bottom of the pyramid because while I might have a hundred different privileges they don't have that. And for them, imagine this, right? In India there is this concept of selling stuff, little tiny things like flowers and other things on the side of the road. And these are not offices, there is no cubicle or air conditioner in that they're selling something on the road. And whatever they make on that day is their entire day's earning. And if they don't make enough, they probably won't eat dinner. And these could be women who have children and like a useless husband or whatever. So I'm thinking what is she going to do if a man comes and stands in front of her and flashes her? That's her workplace. She's a working woman and this is harassment. 

Those are all the problems that I have talked about in my film. So it's all nice and happy to say that educated women are not keeping quiet anymore. They're fighting their cases. They're not letting these perpetrators free and things like that. That's, on the one hand it's a good news, but what is truly happening in a country like ours is we are completely neglecting the unorganised sector and women belonging to marginalised communities. And that's the truest shame because no matter how many films come out like this situations belonging to the marginalized communities, it'll take a revolution to change their plight. 

Raquel:  I really like the point that you're making about the informal economy because when we think about workplace harassment, we're thinking of the dynamic of the woman who is sitting in an office, maybe sharing of offices with someone else or maybe in an office by herself. But it's like there's a lot, especially in the global south, there is a lot work that is informal that is taking place on the streets. Like in the Dominican Republic for example, we have a lot of people, a lot of women who work selling fruit on the streets, who work selling candy, their jobs are on the street.

And that was one of the reasons one of the main problems that we had during Covid 19 crisis is that you can tell people to stay home if they have like a stable income that comes every month. But how do you do that in a country where so much of the population depends on what they make every single day because of the informal economy. 

So what you're bringing up is, well, what about the harassment of the women? or the of the woman who is selling fruit on a stand that she carries through some sort of bicycle mechanism. The harassment is most definitely taking place, but then how do you protect women from that kind of stuff?

Thank you very much for sharing that. Is there anything else that you want to add?

Vaishnavi: I just want to say that for us to do something worthwhile and for us to stand as one unit, as women, I think there is a lot that needs to change within our mind-set where we sort of broaden our vision to something far broader than our home or our street, or our society or our community, and spread it far and wide to see the actual realities of women in our country where they don't even have a daily livelihood in place. So I think when women do that and women get a sense of what it feels like to live a life like that, I think perhaps they will stop talking about choice as if that’s a choice.

Would somebody live like that as a choice, is something that I wonder the most. I think as a call to action, the only thing that I wish to say is that women really need to step out of their body, out of their self and take a look at the disparities in the absolute depravity in the world that we have and perhaps that will, you know, be the beginning of some sort of revolution I hope.

Raquel: Thank you. That's some powerful words. So I want to talk about something and it's all right if you don't want to but you were cancelled by liberal feminists precisely because like, you made this film and you were invited to a film festival. Was it a film festival to present it or to an event where you were going to screen your event and you were abruptly cancelled? Would you like to speak a little bit about your experience in that? 

Vaishnavi: Gladly. Gladly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is one of those very, very, key pivotal moments of my life that I will not hesitate or shy away or be afraid of narrating over and over again because they did this to me and I did nothing to deserve it.

So I was selected as one of the six people to go on an exchange programme by the State Department of the US because they were choosing the filmmakers who were using film as a medium of social change. So I sort of sit squarely on top of it and I was going to go to these few cities and I thought I will make the most of it and organise a few screenings of my film and try and talk more about my crew members so that they can get more work so that they can see how well they have done in the film in terms of editing, in terms of music and everything.

And I thought I will push everybody's work a little bit and, you know, enable more women to work with other women and do some sort of cross border collaboration and things like that. That's always been my thing. So this organisation called Polish Project that is based in New York run by an Indian woman, and I don't know how many others, but mostly run by an Indian woman who I met in Chennai, by the way, we had a conversation and thoroughly impressed by the work that I have put in and the film that she had watched it and she was very, very happy to screen the film. She thought that it covered a wide range of issues and issues that she claims to be bothered by because this is a non-profit and she talks extensively about the plight of women in India.

So it turns out that the event was supposed to happen at some point and three or four days before the event, I get an email, just a very blanket, abrupt email that said something along the lines of, ‘well, we are an organisation that is all about inclusivity and we don't do any form of discrimination, but we observe that you have made certain tweets that were transphobic in nature and therefore as an organisation we decide to cancel your event and we don't owe you anything.’

Or something like that along those lines. So they also hyperlinked some of the tweets that they were talking about, which they found to be problematic or whatever, transphobic or whatever. So I clicked on them and I saw what I tweeted. All I said was that men shouldn't be in women's sports and that men, a trans person's safe space shouldn't be inside a woman's shelter.

Things like that. Along those lines, something that you and I would probably talk about on a daily basis, it seems like common sense to me. So I had made some a few tweets and this it is particularly funny because not only have they scanned through my social media to find something problematic so they could cancel me, not only is that funny, but they found it and thought that this was problematic and therefore, without even giving me an opportunity to explain myself as to why, what my position is in regard to that and that I am not transphobic or anything. I believe in everybody having human rights, but only it shouldn't be at the cost of my rights. And that's all I was trying to say. 

They never listened to me, they never gave me an opportunity to explain myself at all. They blocked me on all social media and they started badmouthing me and all those things happened. So I was sitting on it for a few days and ruminating whether or not I need to go public with it.

And I decided I will write about it and I wrote about it. And then there was an avalanche, a lot of people started…. I used to, so I moonlight as a writer and that's how I make very little money. I make very little money and whatever money I make, I put it back into my films. I kind of live a very, very modest life, so I really do not have a lot of expenditure.

I have a very, very recyclable lifestyle, so thankfully my expenses have been pretty low, but whatever little I used to make by writing for these media organisations about filmmaking, about feminism and things like that, there were about six or seven of them that I used to write for. And when this news came about and all the Indian social media woke idiots came to know about it, all of them somehow looked me up and they Googled me thoroughly. And then they wrote to all the media houses that I have since written for, I don't know what they did. My guess is they must have asked them to not commission me anymore because I have since only gotten the rejection from them because apparently I'm transphobic, therefore they shouldn't be working with me even though, neither was my film about transgenderism, nor was I writing about transgenderism, nor was I actually saying anything transphobic to begin with. But that cost me a lot. And that sort of set me back a little bit because I was counting on all those little few thousands here and there to sort of make for like a monthly income. It seemed like a good setup that I had, but all of it got stripped off completely. And so it, it was purely because of the fact that these people think that I am a transphobic person. Therefore, I don't deserve to write anything about feminism because by putting women first apparently I've hurt a lot of people, and therefore I need to be taught a lesson. And therefore they all stop commissioning my writing. 

And these people belonging to that Polish project have since continued to host many other events, I guess, but they have since not written to me, nor have they responded to my article about the cancellation, where I've clearly mentioned that it is them. Many of my friends tagged them and everything. They literally kept radio silence. They didn't want to have anything to do with my cancellation whatsoever. 

Raquel: They didn't want anything to do with speaking publicly about your cancellation, but they did it anyway. You said that it was about teaching you a lesson and I think that what I saw was like the message is twofold. If you do not go public with this sort of cancellation process where you used to be a writer and then they're rejecting your articles, that kind of stuff, if you do not go public, then they think of themselves as being successful because they have deprived a woman from her livelihood.

If you do go public, then the message is to other women essentially saying, look what we can do to you if you yourself speak out.  

Vaishnavi: But unfortunately for them, Raquel, I think the cancellation was the best thing that happened to me, and therefore, it is the biggest nightmare that they have gotten themselves into right now.

Because since that time, it was such a, freeing moment. I mean, by then I had completely radicalised for, I was only just not tweeting very openly or very actively about it. But my politics was very clear. I was focusing on my films. I was focusing on writing these feminist articles and things like that, but it was just that I was not tweeting.

But ever since that happened, I took it upon myself to point out the hypocrisy of liberal feminism. It was something that I was doing as a 24/ 7 job for a few days and they did not see that coming. So many friends unfriended me. So many friends sent me stinkers. So many friends called me all kinds of very, very creative expletives swear words. And all these really young, 16, 17 something who have it on their bio saying they're 16. I don't understand why, but they are tweeting me. They don't know anything that I have done. They don't know my life. They don't know anything about me, but they are just saying all kinds of awful, miserable things.

And of course, needless to say, they were the kill terfs battalion that came out and started sending me these images and you know, threats and everything with guns and what have you. All that happened. I have literally not stopped because what I have done since then is I have started writing more.

I created a vlog channel where I'm calling out the liberal hypocrisy by talking about all the things that they claim to be choice. And I'm talking to experts and telling them that it is not. And I have also started making films that are mostly radical in nature right now. And there is absolutely nothing that is stopping me.

So in a way, what turned out to be a very, very painful experience. You know, because no matter how solid or strong you are, when somebody accuses you of something and it is a blatant lie, you really just sit down and you don't know what to do with it. It feels so hurtful. But I turned it around and I am now literally the terror because I have heard some of my friends share screenshots with me where people are discussing about me elsewhere on social media, about how I am this Chennai based terf that we need to be careful about or something like that. So basically, I've arrived.

I'm one of us. I'm one of you right now.

Raquel: You have arrived. Yeah. I'm Queen Terf in the Dominican Republic as well and they're meant to use it as a hurtful, abusive insult, but I just keep doing my work. And what do you see is that a lot of people respect the fact that you continue to advocate publicly and democratically and in a transparent manner, and there are far more people who are willing to sort of like, oh, well what is this thing that she's saying? Let's read about this woman. And then they sort of like start doing the process of analysing on their own instead of the people who just sort of sit behind keyboards uttering hate. Essentially what you're describing is that it backfires.

But there's two interesting things that I hear from what you're saying. And the first thing is that the people who were supposed to be screening your film, essentially, they decided, and the people who mounted this vilification campaign against you, they mounted all of this vilification campaign, which essentially amounted to preventing a film about sexual harassment from being shown. 

Vaishnavi: Exactly. Receiving attention. 

Raquel: Yeah. Essentially, a woman makes a film about sexual harassment in India, the first full length documentary about sexual harassment in India. You did it all on your own, you taught yourself, you created this team that was an all-female team. You did this amazing work for women on behalf of other women. These women were so eager to speak with you, to have their stories put out there. And some people on social media decided to look at whatever tweets you sent, regardless of what they say. And on the basis of that, those women's voices, the women who spoke with you, their voices were not heard.

When your work is about highlighting sexual harassment, they attempted to shut it down. They did not succeed. But think about the mentality behind that. And then aside from that, it's like the people who cancelled you, who were like from outside of India, it's like, so you're willing to try to shut down the voices of women from the global south as long as they don't adhere to whatever ideas you believe they should adhere to. 

There's this sense of ownership that, that the voices of women of colour, the voices of women from the global south are only acceptable as long as they say certain narratives, as long as they adhere to certain agendas. And that is such a power and control thing because you're essentially saying, unless you agree with our politics on this issue, then we are free to dehumanise you and that is unacceptable. 

So I thought that that was very telling. It's one, it's about shutting down a very valuable and important film about sexual harassment. But number two, it's about trying to dehumanise a woman from the global south who is doing work for other women. 

Vaishnavi: That is right. That is right.

And you know, Orwell's Animal Farm comes to mind. ‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than the others.’ Is what comes to mind to me whenever I think about this trans activism, actually. So these women, if you go on their Twitter or you'd notice that they're talking about feminism, about grassroots, Caste about Duluth women, about Muslim women and how they are marginalised and how it is wrong, and how people belonging to the privileged communities must open their eyes to their own shortcomings of being castes and racist and all of that. But all of this is subject to you accepting a man to be a woman. If you don't do that, anything you say, even if it is literally word toward the exact same thing that they are saying, you'll be cancelled. 

Raquel: But that's not freedom, women's rights were not fought so that women could utter acceptable opinions. Women fought for political participation so that we can utter all sorts of opinion. So we can have all sorts of views and have different perspectives and have differences among ourselves. Like that's freedom. 

You don't have women's rights if women's rights are only contingent on having views that are accepted by the majority or by X number of people. That's patriarchy at work.

You are allowed to believe that you have rights as long as you behave in the way that I want you to behave. That is such fucking bullshit. 

I'm sorry. This is your podcast. so yeah. I just find that I love that you mentioned that you felt free, that you found that after it happened, you call it a freeing moment.

So I wonder, as a final question:

What would you say to other women who may be in your position, who may maybe who want to be filmmakers and want to talk about, I don't know, child sexual abuse or who want to talk about prostitution or who want to explore exploitative labour practices that are harmful to women, you know, what would you say to a woman who was in your position when you started making this film? And who wants to take on other feminist topics, but who has looked at what happened to you and maybe concerned or fearful, what would you say to her? 

Vaishnavi: I would say I survived. And so can you. This is a moment in time and that if anything should galvanise us even more than asking us to retrieve into some sort of a hole.

And ever since this happened, Raquel, what I have done is in order to set an example, I shouldn't be the only woman in India who should be speaking up about this. So what I did is I started finding a lot of Indian women who are radical feminists, who are gender critical, and I brought them together under an umbrella. We talk every day. We are Indian women, but some of them are not living in India, but are Indian born here and have travelled and everything. We are about 32 to 35 of us. What I have done with this group essentially is I am slowly organising. I am slowly reforming. I am trying to build a momentum to arrive at a point where whatever happened to me should seem like a minor inconvenience because it happens to so many of us and all of us have thrived, and all of us have managed to look at it as a minor inconvenience and move on and continue to speak the truth.

And all these people have put their identities at stake, have put their lives at stake, have put their jobs at stake and everything. And these women are still raring to go. And I think that's the precedent that I want to set for any woman that is in a position similar to mine. Nobody should be afraid of what happened to me because nothing happened to me.

If anything, this was the best thing that happened to me. And the cool thing is, should something like this happen to them now they have company, I have created this community for them to come and feel involved and be a part of, so that they don't feel alone like I did when I, when that happened to me.

When it happened to me the friends that I had were, you know, I did have a lot of friends, but none of them were from India at that time. So, which is why I thought it would make sense for us to, instead of just speaking about, sort of a blanket feminism for all over the world, I thought it was my prerogative to start digging downward, you know, digging into things that belong to my country, my city, my State, and things like that. 

That is why I started this community. And I think with this community, I'm very, very confident that I will keep including more and more radical feminists, Indian radical feminists. And slowly, all these cancellations would just be laughed at, as time passes, as some sort of a ‘oh, well, uh, they've cancelled her also.’

Raquel: they cancelled her also. What's her phone number? What's her WhatsApp…? We’re going to add her!

Vaishnavi: Exactly. That is exactly the group. That is exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. You’re cancelled? Don't worry. We've got you sister. Come with us. You're not alone. 

Raquel: Oh! that is still such a positive note to leave it on and I just feel so energised and inspired listening to you. So thank you. Thank you so, so much for participating at this FiLiA podcast. Is there anything else that you would like to share with us? 

Vaishnavi: I am just so thankful you know, FiLiA is one such organization that I have watched from a distance in awe about all the work that you have done.

The conferences, especially, I have been amazed at how you managed to galvanize so many women under one roof. So for me, this would feel like a little bit of a surreal moment where after we finish talking, and maybe after it comes out, I'll have to pinch myself to see if it really happened.

So thank you for having me. I'm beyond grateful. I am so, so honoured that you thought to have this conversation with me. It means so much to me. Raquel, thank you. 

Raquel: Well, we are absolutely grateful that you agreed and that you are in the club, like, or we are in your club as well.

It feels so powerful and moving that is like everything negative that you throw at women, women are going to make something positive out of it. 

Vaishnavi: Damn right! 

Raquel: We use that as an opportunity to uplift other women. So those stupid, no, they're not stupid, but those people who try to cancel you, ended up giving you a larger platform. Your Film has been viewed by a lot more people than perhaps it wouldn't have been viewed if they, if they had allowed you to be. Yes. So that's the moment that we are in the feminist moment right now. It's like every single woman that they tried to shut down to cancel, to silence, to punish for defending her own rights, like every one of those woman is becoming a multiplier who connects with other women and who uplifts other women. So we are just so, so happy to have you with us. And thank you for speaking for the FiLiA podcast.