#91

Sadia from FiLiA in conversation with Tegan Larin – Prostitution laws in Australia 

catwa.org.au.

Sadia: Okay, so hello everybody. Thank you for joining us. My name is Sadia Hameed and I'm joined today by wonderful Tegan Larin. Hi Tegan. 

Tegan: Hello. Thanks for having me. 

Sadia: Tegan, you specialise in prostitution so could you tell us a little bit about what you do and a little bit about yourself?

Tegan: Yeah, sure. So, I probably first got involved with this issue or with prostitution in 2013 through I was doing theatre at the time. And one of the projects I was doing was a community theatre project with a group, the community group happened to be women in prostitution. And that's where I sort of really first came into contact with that issue, I guess, and got a sort of really good understanding of what prostitution was and how it operated in Melbourne.

So after that I went to do my Masters of International Relations at Melbourne Uni. And I did a class with Sheila Jeffreys and I guess she really sort of gave me the framework to understand prostitution. And then from there I sort of focused on feminist issues in my studies.

I finished that master's in Berlin. I did an exchange at Humboldt University where I also focused on sort of women's issues and gender studies and then at a loose end, I decided to do a PhD back in Australia, and that's what I'm doing now. So I'm hopefully finishing this year or early next year.

My PhD focuses on prostitution specifically the unregulated sex industry in Melbourne. 

Sadia: For those that don't really have an understanding of prostitution, definitions, what it entails, can you kind of elaborate a little bit? You said you got a better understanding of prostitution, you know, through all, all of this kind of history that you explained.

Can you give us a little bit more detail about what you, what your understanding of it all was? 

Tegan: Yeah, sure. So I guess I hadn't really thought about it before.  And meeting these women and some of them had been trafficked as well. but just hearing their sort of experiences and stories gave me sort of real understanding of what it was.

And that was that it was male violence against women. maybe sort of on the more extreme end, but sort of in a continuum of male violence. And it was just so clear that that's what it was. And I guess that's where my interest probably stemmed from was sort of why we’re encouraging or supporting this industry when it, it harms so many women.

Sadia: And so in your PhD, what are you looking at? What specific area of prostitution are you looking at? 

Tegan: So, in Australia prostitution is regulated at the state and territory level. So we have lots of different approaches I guess to prostitution. 

Essentially in the majority of states and territories, prostitution is either legalized or decriminalized. Prostitution per se isn't criminalized anywhere, but certain prostitution related activities like, streets soliciting and, things like that are prohibited in some states and territories, but overall it's largely legalized or decriminalized.

In Victoria the state which I live in, which Melbourne is the capital, prostitution is legalized and has been legalized since 1984, although before that I guess was largely tolerated. So I'm looking at illegal or unlicensed brothels, which are mostly in the the form of massage parlours. So businesses that are, I guess presenting as a place for massage, but are actually providing sexual services. And that's thought to be the main type of illegal brothels in Victoria. 

So there's estimated to be about 500 of those illegal brothels, and there's around 90 licensed brothels in the state. So I'm looking at it from a sort of policy perspective and sort of trying to understand how and why this is the case if we do have a licensed legalized system.

Why are there so many illegal brothels operating? 

Sadia: So, usually when there were discussions around decriminalization, I guess people usually assume that, that that means that there are no laws at all. So can you kind of explain the difference between legal and illegal prostitution in this instance?

Tegan: In Victoria, prostitution is regulated under the Sex Work Act, which has been enforced since 1994. And subsequent sex work regulations, which are last updated in 2016. Under the legislation, prostitution is mostly legal. Some aspects such as straight soliciting are not legal, but are tolerated by local authorities when it occurs in certain areas that have been unofficially designated for street-based prostitution.

People from all sides of this debate usually agree that legalization has not worked in Victoria it has not succeeded in many of its aims, such as to bring prostitution above ground, make it safer for women, improve workplace rights, pay or entitlements.  What legalization has done is legitimize pimps as businessmen and sex buyers as legitimate customers.

So I guess how we don't agree is on the solution to the current problems of the sex industry. The pro-prostitution lobby group is advocating for the full decriminalization of the industry. It's not exactly clear what a fully decriminalized model will look like in Victoria. But from what's sort of been discussed so far it seems that decriminalization would be to repeal the current sex work act. So to remove any special legislation and treat prostitution literally the same as any other type of work, regulated through existing workplace regulations.

So I think decriminalization sounds good to some people because they only think about prostituted people. And of course people in prostitution should never be criminalized, what they don't seem to realize is that full decriminalization also means decriminalizing sex buyers, pimps, brothel owners et cetera.

So these are already legalized in Victoria, so presumably decriminalization will relax any restrictions on these further and expand the sex industry. So currently where sex buying is prohibited, for example, on the street, I guess this would no longer be formally prohibited. Men will be more empowered and sex buying will be further legitimized.

Decriminalization is touted as progressive policy but it's very regressive. Survivors of prostitution will tell you that decriminalization and legalization make the situation worse for women because it empowers sex buyers, pimps and brothel owners, and makes those being prostituted more subjected to the demands of the sex buyer and brothel and managers, moreover, ‘the customer's always right’ sort of mind-set. 

A good example of this is in the Northern Territory in Australia which decriminalized prostitution last year, there've been reports of sex buyers suing sex workers for breach of contract, so for not getting the service that they wanted.

This is what happens when we treat prostitution as work. It doesn't actually empower the worker. It actually gives her less choice. People are often given a false comparison between total criminalization and total decriminalization. And this is being pushed by pro prostitution lobby groups, even here in Victoria where prostitution has been legalized for over 35 years.

Sadia: Okay. And what kind of things? So if you have legal prostitution and then an illegal prostitution, are there cases that fall through the gaps? Are there things that end up protecting nobody because of the gaps in legislation and policy? 

Tegan: Yeah. I guess it's interesting in Victoria because we do have a legalized model, so essentially it's created a two tier system of legal and illegal brothels, legal brothels have to get like a proper permit, the manager owner is licensed. They're obliged to adhere to the sex work act and regulations. Legal brothels can only operate in certain areas. They've been zoned to industrial areas, there are restrictions on advertising, things like that.

In comparison, illegal brothels that operate under the guise of a massage business, easily eschew any permit or licensing restrictions because technically they are just a massage business. I think part of the reason why there are so many more illegal brothels than legal, is just that they're so easy to open. It’s literally, just get a lease on a shop front. And because it's registered as a massage business, in practice, they're running a brothel out of it. But on paper it's just a massage business. So it's operating completely outside of that system, and it's never going to be held to any brothel standards that at least, theoretically, apply to the licensed brothels. 

In practice, the licensed sex industry has very little regulation and oversight because the industry is basically not regulated. It's like it's been put in the ‘too hard’ basket. 

Sadia: Okay. So in terms of the legal brothels are there any regular checks?

Is there any regulation? Is there is any data or kind of reports published about the checks in regulation about them? 

Tegan:  I think there isn't much, but I think you can go searching for things like that. Consumer Affairs Victoria, which is the regulatory body of the licensed sex industry, had only made like a handful, I can't remember the exact number now, but like a handful of inspections to brothels over the last four or five years.

It's just sort of not regulated in practice. Occupational health and safety officers made I think between eight and 12 visits to licensed brothels in the last year. So it's really just not being regulated, even though I guess it's legislated that it is regulated. 

Sadia: So how many brothels are there then if they've only made roughly a dozen visits?

Tegan: So there's 90 licensed brothels in Melbourne. 

Sadia: Okay, so there's no real oversight. So could there then be an argument that those that did want to do kind of any illegal behaviour within these brothels could do it in plain sight?

Tegan: Yeah, and I think this does happen. Like there are cases of human trafficking happening in the legal as well as the illegal sex industries in Victoria. There are high profile cases of money laundering, sex trafficking and things like that occurring in the legal sex industry that are sometimes reported in the media.

There's an avalanche of evidence showing the various forms of violence and exploitation women in the legal industry face. Some women consider murder to be part of the job, for example. The reality is that the legal brothel industry, as bad as it is, is only a small part of the overall sex industry in Victoria.

The fact is most of the sex industry is happening in the illegal sector. So I guess if we know that things like crime, exploitation, sex trafficking, and murder are happening in the legal sector, the sector that's supposed to be safe and legitimate, then I guess we could assume that these issues are at least as prevalent in the unlicensed sector.

Sadia: So do you know how many unlicensed brothels there are versus licensed brothel? 

Tegan: So the estimates vary, but they're pretty consistently around the four to 500 mark. I've worked with a couple of frontline organizations that work with women in the sex industry in Melbourne, and one of those believes the number to be 500.

Sadia: So all of these figures we're talking just about Melbourne, not the whole of Australia. 

Tegan: Just in Melbourne. 

Sadia: Okay so in your experience with the pro sex work lobby, are they wanting more deregulation? 

Tegan: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, there's, I guess like most places, a push for decriminalization of prostitution and there's a current push in Victoria. 

Sadia: Okay. And what are they asking for? Are there any specific, like is there any thinking involved in women's safety or any kind of any support systems or for those being exploited or harmed, any regulation on pimps or traffickers? Are any of those conversations being had from that side? 

Tegan: So I should have mentioned this earlier, but I am a member of CATWA the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women Australia which is the Australian branch of the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International, which is headquartered in New York.

CATWA works to end all forms of sexual exploitation of women, especially prostitution, trafficking and pornography. So CATWA has been involved in the review into the decriminalization of prostitution and when the government first announced that there would be a review, we welcomed a review.

As I mentioned, the current system is extremely harmful to women, and there hasn't been a review into prostitution since 1985, despite the outrageous human rights abuses occurring in it. So we would welcome an independent review into prostitution. Unfortunately, what the government has done instead of an independent review is a so-called targeted review which seems to be something invented just for this, and it's a review into how to implement full decriminalization rather than a review into how to better address prostitution. 

So it precluded any discussion of any other model of prostitution policy like the Nordic Model which we advocate for. 

So full decriminalization is just one model of prostitution regulation that is widely criticized by sex trade survivors, anti-trafficking organizations, and feminists working in this area.

And there really isn't any evidence that decrim is an effective model at all. And it's really not clear who chose this model or why. We have many concerns with this review. A huge concern is that Fiona Patten, who is a Victorian member of Parliament and leader of the Reason Party, which was formerly called the Sex Party, is leading the review.

Patten has links to organizations that have a vested interest in the deregulation of the sex industry. She's been lobbying for the full decriminalization of the sex trade for years and when she announced on her Twitter that she would be leading the review, she used the hashtag ‘Sex work is Real Work’, which is obviously a hotly contested claim and survivors argue that prostitution is neither sex nor work. 

So we see Patten’s appointment as a clear conflict of interest that favours sex industry, businesses and owners. So it seems like a done deal. We didn't have high hopes for the review and our involvement has left us increasingly disappointed.

So, for example even though the review website states, that they want to consult with a broad range of stakeholders and hear alternative views, they excluded prostitution survivor organizations.  We know of four survivor organizations that were excluded from the stakeholder consultations, and these are organizations that have women who previously worked in the sex industry, including under decriminalized and legalized models, so obviously have important first-hand knowledge and expert understanding. 

So we think it's completely unacceptable that survivor organizations were excluded, that they should have a right to be listened to. And we believe they were excluded precisely because they can attest to how harmful decriminalization is for prostituted people.

So our main question really was how will decriminalization fix the problems, legalization has failed to address? Other concerns we raised were around exit services, that demand for sexual services be recognized as fuelling a sex trade and sex trafficking, that the government address the violence and exploitation in the industry, and that they listen to and consult with survivors.

Sadia: So presumably your coalition has raised the conflict of interest with the inquiry. What's been their response? 

Tegan:  Just to ignore us really. We put out a media release when it first happened. We've tweeted about it. We've tried to sort of get media interest. We've mostly just been ignored. 

Sadia:  I think the media tends to be quite woke on this, don't they? They're probably not going to be on the side of CATWA. So there's not going to be, I think we're not really living in an era where you do have impartial media or impartial kind of individuals involved in anything.  It makes it quite difficult when you are trying to look at all the data and the evidence and then form a response off the back of that. 

What’s happening right now and what's going to happen next?

Tegan: So I guess they've just finished the consultation process. So like I said, CATWA was consulted. We did manage to bring a survivor with us, but because her organization was excluded. So we just tried to sort of raise our main concerns.

You mentioned whether they'd considered things like trafficking earlier, that was one of our critiques. They gave us consultation questions to respond to. They nowhere in the document mentioned trafficking, which is obviously a huge concern of ours. They also were using the term non-consensual sex work, which we obviously had problems with because there's no such thing as a non-consensual sex work.

It's either rape or exploitation of children or minors or trafficking. What is non-consensual sex work? 

Sadia: So why were they using that term? Why weren't they using terms like, rape, sexual exploitation, trafficking the words that we know? I don't quite understand why they would use that term.

It seems quite offensive actually. Particularly, I mean, yes, it's bad when it comes to women. I feel like it's worse when it comes to children.  

Tegan: Absolutely. I think it just shows the complete hiding of these issues and sort of pretending that they don't exist and trying to label some of the worst things that can happen in the sex industry, that we know that happens like trafficking, as non-consensual sex work, as a way to sort of speak around the issue and not acknowledge it. I think if they had to acknowledge it, they couldn't then propose decriminalization, surely. 

Sadia:  It seems like they're trying to cushion that blow before they do the inevitable by the sounds of things.

I can't imagine, I used to work in sexual violence with police officers. Could you imagine if a woman had been raped and the police said this woman's just engaged in non-consensual sex. That's quite a blow to that woman. 

I don't really understand that forcing the language in a different direction, it seems quite shocking actually. 

Tegan: Yeah, it's shocking and it's completely unacceptable. This is supposed to be a review into the sex industry or prostitution, and they're using terms like that. Like they clearly either have no idea or they're pushing an agenda, and I think it's the latter.

Sadia: That's quite worrying actually, because if you are looking at the issue of prostitution, you have to look at the whole range of issues that come underneath it. But it seems like they have come in with, sadly, a sense that they do know what they're doing rather than they're ignorant, that they're innocently ignorant.

Tegan: I think that was our main concern with Fiona Patten. Like, she's obviously been advocating for decrim for years. Clearly has a vested interest in the deregulation of the sex industry this is why we called it a conflict of interest but no one seems to mind. 

Sadia: So when is this review due to conclude? Do you have a time scale?

Tegan: Yes. So, the whole process has been, this is another sort of criticism, is that it's been really, non-transparent and the whole process has sort of been under wraps. There were no public consultations or it was sort of just handpicked by the review panel as to who they would consult with, who they would hear from. Like I mentioned, they excluded, survivor groups. 

It's also up to the review to sort of get their report together. And then they're going to hand a confidential report or it's optional to be made public. So it seems like, I can't remember the exact words they used, but I got the sense that it was going to be a confidential report that was then handed to the government, and then the government will decide what to do with that.

But I just think that this is something that is in the interest of the public more broadly, and that shouldn't be sort of shrouded in this secrecy. It should be open to the public and that, and open for comment like most other reviews are. And I think it's just an interesting contradiction because they're sort of, they're trying to say ‘sex work is real work, it's the same as any other job’. So why this special process? If it is the same as any other job, why is it so shrouded in secrecy? 

Sadia: So, okay. As participants to the review, do you then get to see the review or will you see your section of the review? Will you get any look in on the final report? 

Tegan: I'm not sure. Like we will make a written submission but I'm not sure if we will get to see which parts of that they've used or referenced or whether it's even sort of acknowledged. I guess usually when you make a submission to the government, they publish them on their website and everyone can see them and there's a sort of record. I'm not sure what the process is with this, but it doesn't seem clear that there will be a similar process.

Sadia: Yeah, we had something slightly similar in the UK. There was a kind of fact-finding report commissioned by the home office specifically about grooming, not about prostitution. And then the findings of it they decided they weren't going to share with the public, even though formally they had promised to do so, because there was obviously something in there that they didn't want the public to know.

But there was quite a big petition created around that. And finally they said that they were going to publish it. I imagine they're probably going to publish a redacted form. But that could be a possible option for your team, to launch a petition if you think that this is something that, and quite rightly, that the public should see. Particularly when public money is going on it as well.

That's always a good way of kind of good way to say ‘hang on, we spent our money on this. We want to know.’ And why is it such a secret? What are you planning behind closed doors? It always kind of raises suspicion when they don't want to share information. 

So, is there anything that you need from others?

Do you have a message? Do you have any requests for help, support?

Tegan: I'm not really sure, I guess, what could be done. Your idea of a petition to release that information to the public is a good one but yeah, I guess we sort of try to encourage people to think about the issue of prostitution, talk about it with their friends. 

The mainstream narrative of like, ‘sex work is work’, I think that sometimes comes from a good place where people are concerned about women and women's rights.

But it's just such a tiny part of the picture and we really need to be looking at the extreme violence that happens and I guess people just don't generally have no idea. I guess that's my sense. 

Sadia: Just to play devil's advocate for the moment. What is the issue with the ‘sex work is work’ slogan?

Tegan: I guess this is something that often comes up. And prostitution is often compared to other forms of work, maybe undesirable or maybe low paid, but other forms of work. So one that I often come across is McDonald’s. And people will say, ‘what's the difference between going to work at McDonald's when you hate your job or going to work in a brothel’?

But as feminists, we do see a huge difference between taking someone's order for a Big Mac or being penetrated by strangers all day long. I think the difference is that one involves repeated sexual contact, and I think that is different from other forms of labour. And I guess like a bad day at work at McDonald's is really different to a bad day at work in a brothel.

Sadia: And there's a big difference between having a loving sexual, consensual relationship and like that intrusion of your body, even if you're getting paid, by somebody that you don't necessarily want inside your body. That's just, there is a big difference. 

Tegan: And I think this is really stark in the Victorian setting because we do have a licensed sector, on paper at least, so theoretically there is a safe way to do sex work or to work as a ‘sex worker’.

But we've seen in practice how this is just impossible to regulate. How do you apply occupational health and safety to that booking when, you know, not even doctors or nurses are allowed to handle biohazardous materials without wearing personal protective equipment? Or how do you sort of apply those standards that you would apply in any other job to that industry?

And the answer is that they aren't. They just aren't applied. 

And I think there's this idea that it, maybe it's not ideal, but at least you're making a lot of money or you don't have to work as long because you get paid more or whatever. But that's just not the case for the majority of women.

And I think that's the problem is we constantly only hear this sort of story from probably white, maybe university educated woman who chose to work in the sex industry and she's having a good time and finds it beneficial in whatever way. And I think, you know, that's all well and good and I'm glad that she's not being harmed, but it's just not the reality of the majority of women in prostitution. And most women can't just choose whether they will go to work tonight or not. Or, there are other financial pressures and other things that are keeping women in systems of prostitution.

And I think we as a society sort of need to look at why that is and question whether it's really a thing that we need as a society. 

Sadia: There was a really good film, few years ago now, Ken Loach made called I Daniel Blake. It showed the scenario that leads up to women entering prostitution and it painted it with all the kind of components in someone's life that might lead them to that scenario. It's not something that you just go up to university and you think, ‘oh, I could do a bit of extra cash and I'll have a bit of fun.’ Those are the considerations that need to be heard.

Tegan: What annoys me a lot about this debate is that it is often people who will never have to do prostitution themselves, fighting for the rights of other women to do prostitution. And in Australia, well, I guess at least in Melbourne, it's really clearly divided between who's prostituted and who isn't prostituted. The majority of women who are prostituted come from migrant backgrounds, particularly Southeast Asia, Thailand, and as well as China and South Korea. So it's just something that I come up against a lot in academia is other academics telling me all the time, like, didn't I know that some women choose it and didn't I know that women should have the right and blah, blah, blah.

But those women will never have to do prostitution themselves. 

Sadia: Do you have any final messages, Tegan? 

Tegan: Yeah, it's an interesting moment that we're living through and I think that Covid has really raised some of the key issues with prostitution.  Brothels were deemed non-essential by the Australian government when businesses were locked down. And I think we should really question whether this is an industry that we should try to maintain. 

Covid has exposed the myth that women can make a lot of money from prostitution, even in well-established, legalized and decriminalized regimes. The majority of women in prostitution are now destitute.

They don't have super sick leave or any entitlements or meaningful workplace rights. Government initiatives to support women to exit prostitution are especially necessary. The majority of women are in prostitution out of a lack of choice for other viable options. Sex buyers are the ones with choice.

They could choose not to exploit women in prostitution. And Covid has really shown that it's a myth that men need sexual access to women in prostitution. 

I think we really need to look at men and their behaviour in this. They know women in prostitution don't want to be there, but they do it anyway.

And it's 2020. And men should absolutely be held accountable for their actions and their role in the global sex trade. If we know that the sex industry is so harmful and we know prostitution is not essential. And we know that women are barely financially surviving in it then the question really is why are we maintaining such harmful industry?

We don't think we need to. And this is why we advocate for the Nordic model, which decriminalizes prostituted people, targets the demand for prostitution, includes robust social services to support women out of the industry and promotes gender equality. 

Sadia: So if you could, let us know where people can follow you and how they can keep in touch if they wish to.

Tegan: Yes. So, the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women has our website, which is catwa.org.au. We're also on Twitter at CATWA Australia, and on Facebook as well, if you're interested in finding out more.

Sadia:  Thank you so much for speaking to us today, Tegan.

Tegan: Thanks so much for having me.