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Gemma: So, I'm Gemma Aitchison from FiLiA, from Yes Matters, from Bolton, and I wanted to have a chat with you, to do a podcast with you, about something that I don't think is talked about enough. Yeah, I don't think it's talked about enough, in feminism generally, and that's class stuff. 

So, my background is, I'm a single mum on benefits, everything The Daily Mail likes to hate, I'm a carer for my son. And what I find weird about the fact that feminism doesn't really talk about it, is because the reasons that women are kept poor are literally everything feminism is about. 

Like, I struggle getting employment because I'm doing all the parenting and all the care work. Well, they're both feminist issues. And like, and the whole thing around shame and all that stuff because, you'll know, “anyone on benefits is a scumbag, and we're all lazy, and it's because we're not trying hard enough and all this,” and the media tells us every day, but not just the media, just like…

When you have to ring up the multiple benefit agencies and stuff, they all have that attitude with you. It's not like, if you've got money and you ring up and, you know, buying a conservatory or whatever it is rich people do, I don't really know. But you don't get, they don't get spoken to like that.

I live next door to, “my good neighbour,” I call them, not because they have more money just because the other one’s a complete cretin, and they bought their house, their council house, and having to explain to them, when they come round and go, “oh, there's such and such wrong with the gutters. You need to ring them.”

I go, “yeah, but you do know that they'll get back to you within 12 weeks.” And the look on their faces of like, “why would you have to wait 12 weeks?” Like, “because we're poor, therefore we do not deserve… it's not customer service, it's, you get it, like, beggars can't be choosers, you’re in a council house, we'll get back to you when we get back to you.”

And they don't get the difference in that. And you've always kept on the edge, of their paperwork fucking up can mess your whole life up. And there's absolutely no sympathy or anything when they do that. So you are on the edge all the time. And you can't rent certain places. You can't get credit; you can't do that.

So as well as like sexual objectification, telling you that you are nothing and you need to improve and you need to be this, you need to be that. We've also got that to contend with as well. And I think it's really interesting that that's one of the ways, especially in like CSE and stuff, but women generally, that that helps exploiting us.

But it's just sort of an area that isn't really talked about. And I wondered what you thought about that, because I know, like, we know each other online and rant about similar things sometimes…

Daisy: … Yeah. I mean, I wrote a post the other day, it was stupid o'clock in the morning and the police banged my door down. And they demanded that I provide identification. And he wasn't even looking for me. He was looking for some random guy and I'm afraid I don't look like a, well, I hope I don't look like a man, but I still had to provide identification.

And I was saying at the time, because a lot of friends were like, “well, you didn't need to do that,” or whatever. And I said, “well, I have my kids in the house and I didn't want to not comply,” but the worst part of it was how he spoke to me as if I was a criminal, just because of where I live. And I'm sure he thought that I'd stashed this bloke he was looking for under my bed or something.

But yeah. And that's even from the police. And it's really hard as well, because there's been times where that's happened or I’ve been spoken to like crap by the police in front of my kids. So then how do you then tell your kids, “well, you need to respect those people because they're trying to keep order in society,” or whatever else. 

And I say that cause I don't want get into trouble. Truth is, I don't really believe it, but yeah, so that's one example of where classes impacted me lately. 

 And in feminist discussions online, it can get fraught a lot of the time. And you know, like a lot of people have already commented, Boris Johnson has got six children to god knows how many women and he is the prime minister of the country.

But if your average working class woman with six or seven kids like me tried to become bloody prime minister, it's not going to fly, is it? Because they're going to want to know, “well, who's the dad's to all these kids? Who's paying for all these kids? Are you paying for all these kids?” And that's something that has been a consistent problem in my life because I've got so many children.

I've got seven children. So immediately people want to know, “well, who is funding that? You know, who is feeding those kids?” And the irony is like, I don't claim any more money than the average parent with two or three children would claim because I've always hustled in that way. It's been like self-employment or odd jobs here and there.

Or like, I once had a partner who did work, and then just recently gone to university, so I'm now funding myself. And yet people still think that I had the kids for money, which, like I said on my status the other week, I think it's just absolutely ridiculous. If anyone has actually met a child. Have you met a child?

The idea that that's easier than just going and getting a job! There's pregnancy and childbirth and then you've got to raise the kid for 18 years, and kids are not great a lot of the time, let's be fair. So, The idea that all of that is in some way easier than just going and working in a bloody chip shop is absolutely ridiculous.

But yeah, I agree with you. It's, not spoken about it enough. I think it can be quite a challenging discussion, because I think a lot of the women who do have, how do I say this now? A lot of the women who are more likely to be educated on feminist issues tend to be middle class, upwards.

And I think the reason is because in academia, there are class barriers there even now. And it's funny because I've heard, I've had discussions with people who will say that, “oh, everybody's got a degree nowadays.” And I just think that is so far removed from my experience of the world. I will be the first person in my family to get a degree ever.

Gemma: Yeah. 

Daisy: Like, I think I was, what, I must have been coming up to my thirties before I even met anyone with a degree outside of a professional environment, so like a teacher or a doctor or whatever before I met someone socially with a degree. So when people say, “oh, everyone's got a degree nowadays,” I just think that's nonsense. That, that just doesn't fit in with my worldview or reality at all. 

Gemma: Yeah. I think, similar to you really, but I think there's also the idea... I went to the glamour that is Bolton Uni. The best thing about it was the hot chocolate, and I went there because some women had to spend, like, about eight months convincing me that I could, because in my head you don't. You don't go to uni if you’re from a council estate. You just don't do that. And you've got all this stuff telling you every day, and this is the thing about being on benefits that people, I think sometimes people don't understand, and I was talking to Tina from Yes Matters about this.

 It's not that they tell you that you're worthless, they tell you that you are worse than that because you are very existence is causing them trouble, or you're sponging from their them just by existing. So you are worse than nothing. And so you've got all that, you know, in all the newspapers, in how you’re treated every day, and how the system works, got that ingrained into you.

So then to them, going, “oh yeah, I think I'll go to uni.” It just doesn't go together. So it took a couple of my mates a long time. And then when I got there, let's just say my thoughts of, “people who get into uni must be clever,” they went pretty sharpish. There were some people in my class, it seemed like they wore an anti-education hat. We'd just be talking about something and they'd be like…

So I didn't feel… once I was there with the actual work itself. But I did notice a difference when things like placement came up and things like, you know, when you got the grants and stuff like that. There was a big difference then. And even like getting books and having the time to do this and having the time to do that.

So they were usually kids, 18, 19, didn't have their own children, didn't have to do X, Y, and Z on top of. So there was a difference there. But one thing that I've… the times that I've noticed it the most I would say is that my class makes me feel like a bad feminist sometimes, because of the times when I want to join in this civil action or I want to join in this conference, or I want to do this or I want to do that.

But I know when I go to that, that's going to bring a lot of anxiety. So a recent thing I went, well not recent cause you know, when a black hole, I'm not doing anything but recent-ish, I went to a thing, so there was that - what do you call it, that sort of, not a song, I guess, kind of routine, not a dance routine, but you know - the thing about the rapist is you.

 And there was one in Manchester and I was really keen to go to that. And after that I went to another event, around what the law says around, you know, trans rights and stuff like that and what the law doesn't say, but what's being acted on and stuff like that. So I had those two things.

So I thought to myself, right, well, I paid my TV license and I’ve got my gas and electric. I've got this and this, I've got enough for a train ticket to go and do this thing, they're both on the same day, so I'll be fine. And you know, you go and do a thing and that's fine, and we did the thing and then there was a couple of hours in between the next event.

And then it's the feeling uncomfortable because everyone's like, “oh yeah, come up, let's chat.” But then you’re in a pub and you can't get a drink because you could only afford the train ticket. But you don't want to say that because it's really embarrassing. So then you ask for some tap water and just try and blend in for a couple of hours.

And you know, there’s a lot of instances of stuff like that happening and I don't think, “oh, well, you know, they've invited me to a feminist thing, so they should pay for me.” That, you know, that's obviously not what I'm saying, but I feel like sometimes it just doesn't occur to them.

Like I've been to places and done speeches and gone to events and things, and they've said, “oh, come for dinner with us before/after, come for a drink before/ after.” And it just doesn't occur to them that beforehand in the hotel you have to come up with some sort of a financial plan and you've had to save for two weeks before that so you can do that thing, and hope that they don't… that we pay for what we've had and everyone doesn't say, “oh yeah, let's split it,” because then you're like, “shit, well what am I going to do now?”

You know that horrible feeling in your stomach, that shame and anxiety about it. I just don't think that it really occurs to them unless they've been in that situation. And the only other people that have spotted it have been other, what I would call, working class women. They've sort of noticed without me having to say anything.

Daisy: Well I didn't go to either one of those events and the reason is because I didn't have the money . I wanted to go and one of my close friends was doing the one, I don’t know if it was Manchester, I can't remember if it was Manchester or somewhere else actually, I think it was Manchester, and I wanted to go, but I didn't have the money.

And the other thing about that is the hostility that sometimes arises out of the childcare issue. Because I remember there were a lot of heated discussions before FiLiA last year where a lot of feminists were sort of saying, “well, I don't want to have to pay for the creche in my ticket cost,” and things like that.

And, I don't think that they should have to necessarily pay for the cost of the creche in the ticket cost, but at the same time, I think it's a bit shit really to then say, “oh, well we're not going to provide childcare, or childcare shouldn't be provided,” because I mean…

Gemma: It's a feminist event.

Daisy: And I think it can be quite challenging, especially when it comes to things like - and I'm not crapping on anybody here, but I know I'm going to catch crap for it anyway - but like when there's quite a large contingent of feminists who don't want male children around either their female children or at events, feminist events, or whatever else.

And I find that really difficult because you are excluding women on that basis because there are going to be women with male children who cannot find alternative arrangements for those children because men screwed them over. You know, I know more women with children who don't have the father in the picture any more, than any other flavour or combination of family configurations.

You know, the single mothers with no support from their ex, they far outweigh any other situation, at least in my friendship circle anyway. And a lot of them have sons. And the reality is that unfortunately feminist women do tend to be the black sheep of the family. So there can be a significant amount of those women who don't have any family support whatsoever.

So then we're just abandoning these women altogether because, “well, they should pay for their own childcare.” It's just, I mean, that's where the class thing really shine through there because, oh, it wouldn't be lovely if we had the bloody money to pay for it. 

Gemma: Well, it'd be lovely if, you know, the dad did his half of the work.

I mean, I can completely relate to that. My son Len, he's nearly fucking six foot, and he's 12. But I'm very aware that because his dad is inconsistent, which really mixes well with his autism, but when his dad is as he is, I already can't say a hundred percent, “yes, I'll do X, Y, and Z,” because his dad messes me about all the time.

So I can't say definitely yes anyway, but I also am aware that I can't say, “I can say definitely yes, if it's alright if I bring my son,” because I know, because he's a boy, that a lot of people aren't going to be okay with that. And I understand why, I can, you know, I can see the reason, but it does mean that I then can't do that.

Daisy: I mean, as well, especially because of the autism factor. And I guess you could include this in a lot of disability issues. I know I've got another friend who would love to come to a lot more feminist events than she's able to because her child is disabled and there just isn't the facilitation there.

But it’s one thing to leave a neurotypical child with a babysitter or whatever else, it's completely different kettle of fish when you've got neurodiverse children, you can't do that. 

Gemma: You can't. And even if you've had someone that you use regularly, special needs childcare, as they call it, costs a fuck lot more. It costs a hell of a lot more. And I mean, that was something, another thing, that issue I had at uni when people, they were doing childcare costs.

 I had to do an interview with a guy who was like, “oh really? Why does your son need hundreds of pounds for childcare, but other pupils’ doesn't?” I was like, “cause of the form I attached, I have explained it and you just haven't read it.” But it's, yeah, it’s so frustrating and it prevents a lot of things.

I mean, employment-wise, I have had so many interviews. In fact, I've even had a guy in an interview tell me I've been out of work for a long time and I probably wouldn't know what the government's new CSE prevention policy was. I made him get it out and read my name back to me, on the people that helped to write it.

 Because there's this idea that, “well, you can't know anything there. You don't know anything.” And we always get, “oh yeah, you've got the experience and stuff but, you know, your caring responsibilities, they're an issue for us, they’re a concern for us.”

 I either get that, or before I go into, whenever I'm doing anything, you know, with Yes Matters, I could be doing training with police or there's a problem in the local authority, whatever, if I'm going in to do something, I know I have to spend the first 10 minutes of that meeting convincing them that I do know what I'm talking about.

Because they've decided I'm a single mum on benefits, so I don’t know what the fuck I'm talking about. And I get that all the time, especially in my hometown.

Daisy: Do you code switch and change your accent?

Gemma: I have, when I've spoken in parliament, I try and talk extra Boltonian. 

Daisy: Really? Oh, that's interesting. Cause I'm code switching now, but in the opposite direction because I got on this call and it was like, “this is important, this is going somewhere important and people are going to listen to this. So I need to speak with my telephone voice.” 

And that's something that I learned from my mum being really young. Like she was always really hot on the, pronounce your words properly, speak properly, enunciate, enunciate girl! Because she knew that people wouldn't take me seriously if I didn't.

And I have a story about that actually that doesn't really prove anything, but it's quite interesting. I went to A&E when I was pregnant with Lucas, because there was blood gushing everywhere, and I was absolutely convinced that I had miscarried. It turned out that I'd miscarried his twin that I didn't even know I was pregnant with.

But I remember going in there and thinking, I need these people to take me seriously… I need these people to take me seriously, so I'm going to put my telephone voice on. And I did. And I was speaking to the doctor about my symptoms and she was looking at me, like, with a furrowed brow, tried to work me out, and before she said anything about the symptoms that I had just come to her with, she said to me, “where are you from?”

I said, “Doncaster, why?” She said, “oh, you sound too posh to be from here.” And I'm like, sitting there and there's blood gushing out of me. I am miscarrying my twin. And she's more concerned about trying to work out where I fit in this idea of me that she has in her head. Like, where does this new information fit into all that? What does this accent mean?

And I'm glad that I put the accent on because I don't think she would've taken me as seriously if I didn't. But it's really interesting that even someone like a doctor with a doctorate and presumably a lot of time at university was more interested in like whether or not I was posh. Just interesting and really crazy. 

Gemma: It's the whole My Fair Lady thing, isn't it? 

Daisy: Yeah. 

Gemma: Yeah. When I've spoken in Westminster I specifically put my Boltonian thing, and I always start off with, “I've just come up from the mines to talk to you,” every time. 

Daisy: I love that. And you know, I think, Dr Jessica Taylor, cause I mentioned, I spoke to her when she was doing a live on Facebook, and I asked her about that specific issue and well, yeah, and she said, “never change your accent. Never change it. You know, they've got to accept us the way we are,” type thing. And like it was the first time anybody who's ever really, you know, inverted quotes “made it” was advising me not to change the way that I speak.

And I've been trying really hard, to sound a bit more like a fishwife, and not change my accent to sound posh, but it’s an old habit to get out of now. It's really hard. I struggle. And I still do it at Uni all the time. But then I wonder, do they know I'm doing it? Do they hear the difference in my voice? They must do.

And then do they think… it's like, you know when, have you ever thought to yourself, “do people respect me more or less for wearing makeup? Like, do they look at me and say, am I shallow for wearing makeup? Or do they look at me and think, oh, she'd be better with it?” So you don't know what they're thinking.

And it's that same sort of thing, like, “do they think I'm shallow or do they think I'm playing the game and do they respect me for either position?” I don't know. I can't answer that question. Maybe I'm thinking about it too deeply. 

Gemma: Yeah. They're probably thinking about what they can get away with without it coming up as plagiarism, to be honest, at uni. Yeah. Yeah, probably.

 I don't know if… I don't think I've ever put, like, a posh voice on before. I'm not sure. I don't know. I'm not sure if that would do better. I can see why people, why your mum would say that to you, because the higher class you are, the better you get treated. And that just is, isn't it?

But I wonder if that's different, because like my next-door neighbour does, I don't think they sound that much different from me, but I definitely notice, like, the difference in worlds. So I used to have, I'm just realising like, my last best friend and my best friend that I have now are both like, I would say middle class for sure.

I'm just realising maybe I have a type in best friends. That’s weird innit? But my last best friend, all through, like, my teen years and stuff, his mum and dad, like, they paid for his card, they obviously paid for Uni, he was an only child. They had a couple of houses that they rented out, when he… you know, and my best friend now who, and she's, you know, very warm-hearted person.

But we were talking and her mum, as, you know, she was talking to her mum about when she fancied buying a house because her mum had the deposit for her and her sister ready for when they want to buy a house.

Daisy: Wow. 

Gemma: And I just, and she got quite defensive suddenly, because I said, I was like, “oh, wow, that's amazing.” And she went, “well, wouldn't every parent want to?” 

I said, “yeah, I'm not saying they wouldn't, I would love to be able to do that for Len, but I know realistically I'm not going to be able to do that for Len. I'm not saying your mum's bad because she's doing that. I'm just saying oh, wow, Because I notice the difference,” There seems to be like a big defensiveness.

Daisy: Yeah. 

Gemma: And I have noticed this a lot in the whole Covid thing. First of all, the whole childcare thing, it seems like around the country, suddenly men are thinking, “oh, right, so this is what she does,” because they're home, and they are seeing it.

If they're with partners, they're seeing that the kids aren't easy to deal with because suddenly, because they're forced to actually be around, not necessarily to parent, but to just be in the same house, they're noticing that it is quite actually hard work to look after children. 

And also with the whole change around the benefits thing, I don't know about you, but when I've been hearing ministers saying that sick pay £95 a week isn't enough to live on, I nearly fell off my fucking couch because of the amount of not just years, decades, where they've been telling us, in fact in every benefits letter I have ever received, it says, “the amount the law says that you have to have to live on, £65.44,” you know, in every fucking letter I've ever received.

And so on the one hand, they've been saying for decades, “oh no, 60 odd quid a  week is enough to live on, that's sufficient, that's what the law says, so this is, we've calculated it based on that,” to now suddenly top ministers going, “oh, no, no, I couldn't live on £95 a week. Oh, you are right that it's completely unacceptable.”

Uh, fucking what? I know. And it’s almost like they're saying, “oh, no, no, the good people might be affected by this,” and it's, oh, it's really, really annoyed me. 

Daisy: No, I agree. I agree. And what else I find interesting is, you know, they said that they were going to give an extra, what is it, in tax credits? A thousand pound a year or something like that. And it worked out that, what, about 20 a week I think it was.

And like I went onto my bank, there'd been no changes to my circumstances whatsoever, and I went onto my bank after this supposed 20 pound a week increase was supposed to go in. I'd lost three pound a week, I'd lost three pound a week. I didn't gain 20, I lost three, which is just great.

And, it's not just me either. Like I've heard a lot of people say that instead of gaining anything they've lost, or if they have gained, it's been five pounds a week or some something daft and it's just like, it's insane. How are we supposed to actually manage? I mean, in America they've given them a bloody, what they called it, that check that they've given out. Can't even remember what it's called now. 

Gemma: America does have their stuff to deal with. 

Daisy: Stimulus check. That's the one I was thinking of. Yes. I'm not going to go and wish that we had American circumstances, but yeah, I think that it's interesting that, at least there are measures going on around the world that don't seem to be filtering through to the UK.

Gemma: Yeah, well like refusing socialist values if it kills us, well, as it does kill us, but I think what's frustrating me… and I'm a very empathetic person. Right. In fact, I'm too nice and I'm not saying that as like, you know, a nice thing. I have complex PTSD for my childhood abuse, stuff like that. 

So I literally am too nice. I'm too much for people pleaser, to my detriment sometimes. So I'm not like a hard face cow or anything. But the amount of people that suddenly are like, “oh, I was on hold for hours, and then I had to do this, and then they wanted this, and then they wanted that and the way they spoke to me,” and I'm like…

And what frustrates me is that there have been lots of organisations, you know, and charities and so on coming out saying these things, there are people who have literally died in the 12 week wait that they're now complaining about, even though it's less. And I'm kind a bit like, “well, where have you been?”

Like, “oh no, it's affecting you.” And I have mentioned this in, like, the feminist circle. I've got a bit of stick for it, I must say. And it, to me, it seemed like there's been sort of a bit of a barrier, because to me, class is, you know, it's an oppression. Just like homophobia is, just like racism is, just like sexism is, and even though…

Daisy: If I can just interrupt you there, the fact that you have to qualify that in the first place, that you have to say, you know, “this is an oppression.” It's not just something we're universally accepting, we have to remind people, which is just ridiculous. 

Gemma: Yeah. It is a bit like you can do the critical analysis around race, even though you white, you can sort of say, oh, you can accept, £”it hasn't happened to me, but blah, blah, blah.” And I can accept that, you know, if I walk down the same street as a woman who does experience racism, she's going to experience shit that I never will.

And I can accept that. But I don't get defensive. Like we can say in the space of race, the wrong thing to do is to get defensive and not to listen, because that's blah, blah, blah. So we can accept that. But when it comes to class, it's like, no. 

Daisy: No, the thing I was thinking is that these same women who tend to get quite defensive would be absolutely reeling if a man reacted that way when she was trying to talk about feminism.

And I think the reason is because she understands it then, like, “well, it's bad enough that I have to deal with this, now you’re sitting there in front of me, scoffing at me, and you don't believe me. You're just making it even worse. It's crap.” But then she will do the same thing on class issues. And that's so hard because it's just selective like vision on the whole issue. And it really throws us under the bus. 

Gemma: Well, yeah, and I say that to, well I've said it to a bloke on the bus quite lightly when I was last on the bus, actually, and he was going on, you know, he was talking to various different girls, to his mates and he was treating this one like this, and like, “if you don't want us to say this, just tell her this. So she feels like shit. So then she'll shut up.”

He was basically telling his friends how to do coercive control basically. And then he started ranting about Tommy Robinson. So I tapped him on the shoulder as I do, cause I'm lovely, and I said, “you're a hypocrite though, aren't you?”

Because you’re either against oppression or you’re not. You can't cherry pick the one you were against because it happens to be happening to you at the time. Tommy Robinson is a prick. Absolute prick. Racist prick. And he's trying to re-exploit victims of CSE for his own game. I don't like Tommy Robinson, but he says racism doesn't happen to him, doesn't happen because it doesn't happen to him.

 You are justifying sexism because it doesn't happen to you. You're either against oppression or you're not. And if you are not against all of it, you are no different from Tommy Robinson. You are absolutely no different from him. You’re a hypocrite. And, and that's the same. You have to be against all of it. Or that's what you are, you're a hypocrite. 

And I just wasn't expecting that reaction when I've sort of said, “hang on a minute, you know, we've been told that this is enough for us.” And when I was at glamorous Bolton Uni, I think I was just a bit sick in my mouth actually just saying it, but we did stuff. 

Literally, we did stuff about class and about the whole demonisation of the poor. And I honestly, the whole idea that poor people, it used to be poor and disabled people were being punished by God because they were ungodly and they were immoral, and now it's poor people are poor because we're lazy and we're feckless and all that.

And it really hasn't changed. And even though it's been disproven over and over again, poor people are poor because of being exploited over and over again in all the academia. It's all been disproved. And yet the attitude doesn't change at all. Have they? They've just stayed right there.

Daisy: Well, we had a module on my degree course called Language and Representation. And it was for dealing with all the isms and the oppressions that different groups of people face. And I won't name him just in case he ever picks up on this podcast, surprise, out of nowhere, cause I wouldn't put it past him. 

But I think you know what I'm talking about, and he was sitting there and saying, “well, I'm middle class, but it seems to me that you just need to work hard. Capitalism is set up so that if you work hard, you'll do well.” And I just wanted to punch him because that is not how capitalism is set up at all. Capitalism is set up so that social mobility is not a thing for the people on the lower rungs of the ladder.

But I found it quite uncomfortable that even in a quite smallish, mine’s quite a smallish cohort, and we are very close to the lecturers and everybody gets a say, it's that kind of close, seminar style, lecture. And nobody ever called him out on it. You know, he was saying all this crap, and these lecturers that were supposed to be educating people about oppression said nothing to him. They just let me continue.

So then I challenged him on it. And then of course, because you've got that extra layer of sexism there, it's like the way it was perceived in the seminar was that I was speaking more than him to try and counteract his point. And I had to actually record the seminars and take down the timestamps for how long each of us were speaking.

And I think you might have actually seen my pie chart that I made, I made a pie chart to outline exactly who was speaking and for how long. And he spoke more than everybody in the class combined in the entire cohort. Yet there is this pervasive opinion that I am just as disruptive as he is because I call him out on his bullshit, which is so frustrating. 

Gemma: And I'm not being funny, but the lecturers should be doing that. The lecturers should. I had, well, I had a few incidents at uni. The SU (ed. – student union) manager used to get veins in his neck and sweat when he saw, we'll just leave it at there. But the student president he did a thing, there was a thing in the Bolton News, the newspaper, because had been a lot of sexual assaults in Bolton nightlife.

And the SU president, his quote in the paper was that girls should just stop leaving their drinks lying around, cause anyone could do anything. So I walked calmly and lovely into the SU office that very day. The SU manager came out because he knew, and I just said, “have you ever been beaten up by racists in Bolton?” The student president was from Somalia, and he said, “yeah, there's a lot of racism in Bolton.” 

I went, “well, why don't you just bleach your skin so that then no one sees it, but I mean, why are you causing trouble by, you know, making it so obvious? Why don't you take provisions to make sure that doesn't happen?” And he just looked at me. Dumb sucker. I went, “yeah, that's a shitty, ridiculous thing to say, isn't it? And so is, oh, just don't leave your drinks around. We can't leave our vaginas at home in our fridge and then go out. You do know that, don't you? That we can't do that.” 

And it just really frustrates me. And again, when you're doing things like classes, the classes I did, one of them was for youth work and another one was like community work. And to me, you have to be really aware of all that stuff because if you are not aware of it, then you are failing to serve the communities or the youth that you're going in to do that stuff with.

And it seems a lot to me in the stuff we've done in Yes Matters, a lot of social workers don't seem to get it, whether that's in family court or anywhere else. And I just think that there should be more of a thing to prove more that they do get it. 

Daisy: Yeah. Yeah.

Gemma: And even the people in the feminist community that spend a lot of time doing critical analysis of situations and of oppression and things like that. When I pointed out the issues with, you know, the sudden change of benefits and all these people suddenly realising, I did get quite a lot of backlash from that. 

I would say, yeah, I'd say it got substantial amount of messages about that. I made like a little poster thing, saying “why is 65 quid alright for me, but 95 isn't enough for you?” And I posted it around in various places and I honestly was not expecting the reaction that I got. 

Wasn't prepared for it, from a community that, I tend to lower my guard down for, because when you're going into a place where you don't have to explain why shitty behaviour isn't okay, you like, put your guard down a bit. You're not expecting men to be creepy because there's none of that there.

So when I get that, I'm a bit like, oh. And because I'm a survivor as well, I'm automatically going to that thing of everything's my fault. I must have done something wrong, anyway, at the slightest thing. I was like questioning myself for like a couple of weeks over it.

When looking back now, I’m just like… “you didn't do anything!”

Daisy: I mean we've had a similar conversation about this, I think, over the spat that happened on Facebook around class, and it was the same, exactly the same thing. 

You've just used the exact right words, which is that the reason why it hit me the hardest is because in a feminist environment, I let my guard down, I allow myself to be vulnerable. I talk about things very openly that I wouldn't otherwise talk about. 

I sure as shit wouldn't talk about this shit in a uni environment when I'm around people that I know would like to use that information to harm me. So for it to then be flipped around and used against me, it really bloody hurt. And I don't think the particular people who did it or necessarily thought it was going to impact me in the way that it did.

But for a good two to three weeks, I felt absolutely wretched about it. I felt horrendous and I blamed myself in thinking that she was right or they were right and that I maybe had brought all of this crap on myself and that my situation wasn't a social mobility slash class issue, but I'm just a whiny victim!

And I've come out the other side of it now. But yeah, when you are in an environment where you feel comfortable enough to let your guard down and then you're attacked in ways where you're not expecting it… Because, like you weren't expecting it, for me, it came out of nowhere. 

And it seems to be quite a common thread actually, when these women who are going to get defensive do get defensive, it happens very snap quick and you don't see it coming. So then it's like, “whoa, what the fuck just happened? I didn't realise this was going there and now it's gone there and we can't pull it back and it's too late. And things have been said that we really can't come back from now.” 

It's just awful. It's really ugly. 

Gemma: Yeah. And you, you do think like, because it's them, you're like, “oh, but I know they're right about all these other things. And I agree with them about so much. So I must be thinking wrong here.” Yeah, absolutely. It's more hard when it's people that you respect, for sure. 

And there are, I mean, in my own personal experience, I would say there are about five women in the feminist community, that know I struggle and things, and I will say to them, I won't say, “oh, you know, oh, I can't make it that day,” or whatever. I will just say, “look, I can't afford it, and, you know, don't ask me because I can't,” or whatever, that I will say that to.

And even then I feel really shitty about it and I feel like it somehow calls into question my knowledge or my work. And I know that's ridiculous. Because it doesn't impact that at all. But for me, it somehow, if I was honest and just said, no, I'm sorry, I got 60 odd quid a week this week and I can't do that because I had to buy this, this and this, and I'm poor so I can't.

I thought if I'd say that, that would somehow mean that I would come across as unprofessional or something. And I know that that's stupid and yet still…

I mean, I do turn it on its head sometimes. I have to go for that delightful interview every now and again, where the job centre want to see you, and you have to go and take a CV. And when I went last time, I had to do a CV and I had to have references that they could call, and I thought to myself, “who would be, that I've done work with, the most ridiculous people that I could possibly put on this list?” 

And I can honestly say that there is quite a lot of satisfying with making Jeanine, the snotty bitch from Bolton Job Centre, who has treated you like shit every six month for years, having to ring up Ed Miliband for a reference for me. And like, this woman from European Parliament. 

Because she went, “it's not a joke this, you know.” I went, “go on, ring them, they're expecting you”. Her face was amazing. Amazing. So sometimes I do because I know that they think that I'm shit and I'm nothing. Sometimes I like to fucking, you know, grind them down, these stereotypes that they've got in their heads.

But then sometimes I do it to myself because I think, you know, like say, “oh, well don't say that because, you know, you’ll look unprofessional.” It changes nothing whatsoever about what I know about and the things I can help kids with, or I can do this with or that with, it changes none of that. But I still think it will come across as if I can't somehow, and I'm not sure if that is unfounded, because I do think that people do think that. 

Daisy: Yeah, they do. If you've got roots, they judge you because then they know you're too poor to pay for your hair done. You know, and it's like being at school sometimes because like you can tell by the phone someone owns how much money they've got or how old are the trainers that they're wearing or whatever else.

But I also think that there's a bigger problem here, in that there's an issue of representation. Because if poor women can't get to the feminist events, if they can't mobilise in that way, then our voices are absent. And there's a broader sense of ignorance about what exactly we need from this movement in the first place. 

And what frustrates me is when there's a lot of hostility towards women whose only activism is online, or you're just a ‘keyboard warrior’ or whatever else. That's just such an ableist, classist, whatever you want to throw at it. Because the reality is that for so many women, it's the only venue they've got, the only platform they've got to be heard in the first place. 

So to then shit on him and say, “oh, well you need to actually be somewhere physically in person.” Why? That's not the way the world works anymore. It certainly doesn't work that way during coronavirus time. 

Gemma: I've spoke to Jess Taylor about this as well. I spoke at a Women's Aid conference once, and again, I saved up, I went up on the Megabus because the train was too expensive and - they say there’s Wi-Fi, they haven't got fucking Wi-Fi, the bastards, and if they have they keep it from you, anyway, side note – but, so I went to this thing, to speak at Women's Aid and it went really well, you know, I'm witty, charming and dynamic. Obviously it went well.

But there was like, the thing afterwards, there’s always a thing afterwards. And I sat at this table and I was on, I literally did my speech after Amber Rudd, and yet I was on a table with these people that had spoke briefly for 10 minutes on the last day. And they were all discussing how Women's Aid had paid for their travel, paid for their hotel, and given them a fee. I'd been offered none of those things, none.

And I was literally there to talk about the connection of sexual objectification with my sister's murder, that had happened, obviously, a lot more recently at that time that I'd done. And I just thought, and I'm not being funny, there were men on this fucking table, right? It's Women's Aid. Women's Aid, and I just felt shunted, like proper shafted.

And also, in a way, it reinforces everything that, you know, all the benefit system, fucking council estate owners and all that, reinforces, “you are not worth it.” So this man that was talking on the last day for 10 minutes and showing a pie chart, he was worth it, but you weren't, and it was just like, it's re-exploiting survivors in a way, as well.

Because we're not going to ask for it, because we think… it didn't occur to me. In fact, I have been told off by Jess for not asking for fees when I go and do things, more than once. But until she was, like, kicking my ass about it and saying, “well, why haven't you,” I wouldn't dream of it. 

Daisy: That's really interesting, actually, because I have a real problem taking money from anyone, for things that I have done, for my time, or my skills, or my services, or whatever else. I have a massive problem taking money from people. 

Like, my uni have just offered me some cash for a stupid bloody sonnet that I wrote. But already I'm panicking about it because like, although I don't want to ask for the money, I don't want to be too forward, I don't even want to take it. 

I don't even want to take the money cause it just gives me so much anxiety cause I don't feel worthy of it. I don’t know how I'm ever going to even hold a job down and take the money…

Gemma: I could not relate more to you. And it's so funny because, you know, a financial advisor, you know, would charge loads for their time. And the amount of people, I'm sure you can relate to this, the amount of people that work for the fucking council that don't know their arse from their elbow, that don't actually do fuck-all, they’ve got no trouble asking for money!

And it’s stupid because, you know, like, when you sat in front of an idiot from the council who doesn't know what they're talking about, and is just being stupid, you know that you could do their job better. You know that you're more capable than they are, and yet you wouldn't, you don't have that same entitlement because it's been fucking smashed out of us.

And, like, even now, like, with Yes Matters stuff, like, we've brought training programs and I have had to be… so we charge for training programs for people who aren't doing the job they should be doing. But I will never, never charge any survivor or any victim for anything. Not happening.

Daisy: And when you say that's been drilled into us for so long, I mean, that's so true. I remember my first negative experience of dealing with the DWP. I was 15, pregnant with Bonnie. I'd been kicked out of the house for so long already that I already had a long established claim of income support for being estranged from my parents.

And I remember that I was just coming up to… it wasn't long until Bonnie was going to be born and I was going in to deal with, I can't even remember why I'd gone in, but I went in and I was sat behind a little plastic bloody screen, and I was having a conversation with this woman and we were back and forth and she was all right with me. She weren't being a knob with me. She were all right.

And then I mentioned having a conversation with my mum, and she turned immediately and she went, “what do you mean your mum?” And I said, “well, my mum.” And she said, “you do realise if you're in contact with your mum, we'll take your money away and we'll cancel your claim immediately.” And I was like, “oh, I don't mean my actual mum, I mean, she's just the one I call mum.”

I lied on the spot. And it was awful. And I felt so ashamed and I felt like they were going to take my only chance of survival away from me. But looking back on it in retrospect, whether I had had a conversation with my mum – and I did, by the way, I can say it now, cause they can't take jack shit away from me – or not, that doesn't change the fact that I was still living on my own at 15.

Social services were nowhere to be fucking seen. (Hang on a minute, buddy.) I had no financial means of supporting myself. My mother wasn't going to help me in any way, shape, or form. She wouldn't have me back at home. That we were on friendly-ish terms does not mean that she was ever going to support me in that way.

I still needed that support from the government. But how quickly she turned from being jovial and quite friendly to that sort of, “I'm going to shop you. I'm going to turn on you, straight away.” And it was so ruthless that I immediately just felt ashamed and I don't think I've ever lost it since. 

Gemma: They keep you on the edge all the time. You're always on the very edge of complete catastrophe. They never give you enough. There's no security in anything. I find that with food, actually. I associate food with security and that is definitely because you can go to the shop and get some food in. And that's absolutely, like completely associated with that. A hundred percent. Oh, it is, it's just all smashed in us. 

But then how do you think that, like, within feminism particularly, how do you think things could be improved? Should we be talking more about like, the experience of women like us? Or should we, like, should we have things like, you know, tickets for things, for a certain thing, like a lower price or, or a solidarity ticket or…?

Daisy: Well, you know, I think that there's no reason we can't do multiple things at once, have multiple strategies. You know how, it's crap, and we have to, sometimes, we have to accept that whether we like it or not, we need men to speak for us because they'll be taken more seriously sometimes, and I think that that works here as well. Like I really would like to see more middle class women speaking about class because I think they'll be heard more than we are, for a start. 

Secondly, I would like to see more working class women financially supported to get to events and actually speak on our behalf and make sure that our voice is represented there.

I think, I have a problem as well where there seems to be a lack of circulation of the information about events. So I don't find out until like two, three weeks before the events about to start, that's not enough time for me to save up the money to get there. You know? 

I think that's a general breakdown of communication in that way, but I think if we could all work together to make sure we're sharing it so that everybody knows about the event and nobody's going to miss out last minute. What else could we do? 

Oh yeah, please stop getting defensive when we talk about class. Everybody stop getting defensive. We're not attacking you for having things that we don't have. We would just like to be able to talk about the fact that you have things that we don't have and that has an impact on our lives, and it makes it incredibly difficult.

I wanted to ask you, Gemma, how are you coping since the Coronavirus outbreak? As a single parent, who is poor.

Gemma: I can honestly say, no one's ever asked me that. I think, I'm terrified of going out. Because we've been drilling into working class people for years, “don't listen to the experts,” over all this Brexit shit. So now no one's listening to the experts. Who’d have thunk it. So now, like, they're just ignoring it. And so I'm too scared to go out.

And I was actually thinking this morning, we have to do the pay as you go electric thing. Because all council houses have to have that, even though it's more expensive to get your gas and electric on pay as you go, they insist it has to be pays you go. Cause they don't trust us to pay our bills cause we are feckless and lazy after all. 

I was thinking that I'm so, so glad that I have one where I can get it by app, now, and I don't still have the electric key thing. Because how much more of a risk would that have taken, just to do that, if I didn't have the app one? I was really, really worried. 

I've seen all these like boxes you can get from like local businesses, “support your local business,” and I see all them, and I also see the price of them, compared to going to Aldi later in the day to get the stuff that's on offer. Can't do that… can you? 

But then you think, “oh, well do I want to get one of the boxes, things from you know, like the various charities?” but then I think… But then if I say, “can it be specifically X, Y, Z because my son's got autism,” they're going to be like, “oh, well, beggars can't be choosers. You can have this.” So that's difficult. 

And the whole, my son's needs and stuff, it makes it really difficult because I'm getting, every day these people ring me, right. They all say the same fucking thing, which is nothing, by the way, they're just ticking the box to say that they've called me. So I know that this call is completely fucking pointless. I'm wasting my time. 

But I get phone calls from the speech and language therapist, from the occupational therapist, from SENCo (ed: Special Educational Needs Coordinator), his CAMHS (ed: Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) worker, his class teacher, and the head teacher, every single fucking day. 

Every day. 

Gemma: And I'm just, it's driving me mad, because they’re ringing to tick the box. But what also annoys me is, no one's ringing his dad. His dad's not having to answer, like, multiple times in the day. 

“Are you making sure that you're dealing with his sensory diet? Are you making sure that you're making provisions for this? Are you making sure he is doing this lesson? Are you making sure he is doing that lesson?” 

Daisy: “No, do you know what? I thought I'd just forget today!”

Gemma: Obviously it's a podcast. I just pulled a face of anger, so that's why, yeah. It is difficult. 

And everyone's decorating their house, and I might, yeah, I can see all the things that need doing, because I'm here. But I can't drive, so if I want something to go to the tip, I've got to pay some guy 60 quid for a tip run. I'd be left with about four quid to live on, so I can't do that.

And you know, I can't afford to get the stuff to do the thing. So people are like, “oh, isn’t it lovely? Oh, we're having barbecues. Oh, we're doing yoga. Oh, I've just done the conservatory.” “Oh have you? Yeah. That's nice.” I've done those things on the Sims. I do that. 

I have two weird things on the Sims. I have a hate town, where I've killed Piers Morgan so many times he's now haunted by multiple Piers Morgans. And I have – I'm a nice person, but I can't assault people because I work with young people – so I have my hate town, but I also have a town where I literally just… 

The Sim families that already exist, I go to the poor ones, do the money cheat, and do all the nice things for them to make them happy, because I know I can't do that in my own house. I realise that's sad. I know it is, but it makes me feel better and then depressed immediately afterwards. 

Daisy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How crap is it as well, when you, like, play a game and you're really amazing, like banging, at interior design, But like, you can't do it in real life because you've got no fucking money.

Gemma: Yeah. Like I'm not going to find that in B&M. 

Daisy: No, no. Yeah, exactly. I am really struggling with lockdown at the moment. (Hi buddy!) Because, getting food, that's the issue. Like, I can't get a delivery slot and I don't have a car, and the buses have now been, the bus service, has been drastically reduced.

So once every like two, three, sometimes if I can stretch it out to a fourth day, I will, me and my one, two, third daughter will catch the bus to the next village across. And the whole thing takes us about four hours when it should take 20 minutes. 

To go on the bus, get the shopping, wait for another bus, and the bags are heavy…

That's become the focus of my life right now is… like my uni lecturer said to me, “oh, your assignment's due in today. You need to make sure that that's all sorted out. It's only a little assignment. It's not like a grade carrying one.” But I said, “look, you're just going to have to wait for it because I have to go and get food today. And that's a four hour trip.” And she was like, “I don't understand.”

Don't understand! You don't understand. But I feel like this has become my life now, is just trying to find food. And the cost of it has gone up, so much because you can't buy the things that you used to buy, because they're not in stock anymore. The cheap versions are all gone. 

So then you've got to pay four quid for a bag of McCain chips, instead of the 99p that you'd normally pay, because nothing's in bloody stock anymore. So then your food bills three times what it should be. And then that has a knock on effect because then you can't pay your other bills. So I'm getting further and further in debt. I can't rectify it anytime soon. And like my student loan…

Gemma: They're taking money off  you as well! So they've taken money off you, you have even less. 

Daisy: Yeah, exactly. And my student loan came in, and as quick as it had come in, it went out again to try and cover everything that I couldn't pay before, rent, and whatever else. Because although banks are giving mortgage breaks to those who own houses, the landlords aren't extending that to their tenants. 

Gemma: No. You've set me off again, but it annoys me, it annoys me how rent is more than mortgages. Fuck the fuck off! We are paying… not only do working class people build the houses for you that we can't fucking afford in the first place, then we rent it off you. So we pay your mortgage for you and then give you pocket money! Fuck off! So annoying.

And yeah, I have to say, with the whole bags thing where you have to, like, you'll put like one handle on your wrist and one on your fingers for a bit, and then you'll change it a bit and change it a bit. And then you have like the tiger stripes when you get home, and your hands are just fucking stinging and throbbing.

Daisy: It was so bad we were, like, having to pick the bags up, walk three steps, put them down, have a breather, pick them up, walk. It's so bad. 

Gemma: It’s fucking soul destroying. 

Daisy: It's soul destroying, cause this has been my life since 15. I remember walking into town to go to the Netto, getting my week’s worth of shopping, carrying it all the way – oh, I miss Netto Gemma, I miss Netto. Back when you could afford to eat – and I used to carry my week shopping back, on my back, all the way back down to where I lived. 

And that's been my life. And when online shopping came in, that really changed the ballgame for me because, like, then I was like, “well, I don't have to carry bags anymore. This is amazing.” So it's a bit crap to be right back there again and feeling like I've not moved any further forward in the, what? 15 years extra?

Oh, it's more than that. I'm older than that now. 15, 16, 17, 18 years since I was doing it before. Nothing's changed. And then that's a real kick to the tits because you mean I've been working my ass off all this time and I'm no further forward? Wow. That's great.

Gemma: Yeah. And, not to shit on your bonfire or anything. I know you are at uni and having a delightful time, but I did two degree courses. That piece of paper, it's not magic . They don't treat you any better and they still very much judge you, I'm afraid.

But one thing that is good is, if you can email someone like customer service or whatever, you know all the bullshit buzzwords that make them scared. That is something I have definitely noticed. 

Daisy: Can I get them in a pdf please? 

Gemma: Yes. Yes you can. Absolutely. 

Daisy: This is how we're going to help working class women. We'll just send them a pdf of all the buzzwords. 

Gemma: Yeah. Of all the buzzwords that mean absolutely fuck all, but they sound scary so people listen to you. That Mary Poppins song was right all along. 

Daisy: How are you at advocating for yourself with people who are important? Because I find that I can advocate for other people quite well, but not for myself.

Gemma: Unfortunately I do exactly the same thing. I could stand up for a stranger in the street or someone I didn't like very much if I saw that the situation is unjust. I can say, “well, no, no, no, don't care about that, X, Y, Z.” I have tried to get help for this, and obviously being on benefits, I can't get private help or someone that has a good record or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 

So I had to be referred from my doctor, to wait for a letter, to make a phone call, to get a letter, to make another phone call, to be told that this was the wrong place, to have to go back to my doctor to get re-referred, to get another letter from apparently the right place, to make a phone call, to get a letter, to make a phone call, to have a conversation, to wait eight months, to go to an appointment, to the appointments to then be on phone call, to go through what I needed to have help with, to be told, and I shit you not, to be told, 

“Because you are in the situation that you are Gemma, and you have caring responsibilities and the financial situation that you are in, I don't think we should risk going through your issues and maybe coming up with coping strategies because you need to be kept in a stable place and there is no one else that can pick up your slack. Maybe you could try a mindfulness course or join a women's group.”

I don't think that any of the cast on Made In Chelsea would've had a similar experience to me. 

Daisy: I don't either. 

Gemma: No. Like, maybe you could join a women's group. Like, are you joking? I've been in six women's groups today online. I don't need to join a women's group, but yeah, seriously, absolutely nothing. So when I find the answer, I'm happy to give you the answer, but I don't have it, because they won't tell me what it is. 

If you want, we can do the whole strangers on the train thing, and I'll tell you he's pissing me off, you can tell me he's pissing you off, and we can fight for each other. We can come up with that kind of agreement. Happy to do that. But do I know the answer to that? Nope. 

Daisy: Right. So we need a buddy system.

Gemma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing. I'll get right on that mindfulness class as well. Yeah.

Daisy: Did you see what Dr Jess had to say about that today on the livestream thing? 

Gemma: Not today's, no. I think I saw one the other day. 

Daisy: She was talking about karma and the roots of karma and that they're quite misogynist roots because the whole basis behind it is that bad men are reincarnated as women in punishment for whatever they did, because the worst thing that can happen to them is coming back as women or whatever, and it's karmic retribution.

And she was going on about things in similar vein, and she got onto talking about mindfulness and how she's been unpacking it all. And it's a lot of bullshit really, because like, men aren't expected to do mindfulness, are they? That's something that we just chuck in women's pile. 

Gemma: Yeah. I feel like, I've not been on a mindfulness course, but I get the impression that it would be the equivalent of telling us to smile more. Now I don’t know, but I just get that impression. 

And the last time I heard a mindfulness coach was at an International Women's Day event that our town hall ran, and so I went, because I foolishly, foolishly had hopes and dreams. And anyway, I went and I listened to this presentation by this man on International Women's Day. 

Daisy: Oh wow, this sounds amazing. Can't believe I didn't get to go.

Gemma: And he was all about mindfulness, he said, and he had leaflets and stuff like that there, obviously. And this is what he said. He said that women being angry is like holding a glass of water. You can hold it comfortably for a few minutes, but if you continue to hold onto it, it's going to get very difficult to carry around with you. 

And that we should be more positive and we should smile more. I shit you not. We should smile more because it will make other people feel good too, and we should be positive. Then they did a raffle. And the prize was, and I wish I could say I was making this up for, but unfortunately I cannot, the prize was some glittery pink bathroom scales.

Daisy: Wow. Amazing. 

Gemma: We then went over to the library where the men who were supposed to have set up the tables, hadn't. So the women got to work doing it. And providing the buffet that women had voluntarily provided, because obviously there's no budget for International Women's Day. Cause why would they? 

I mean even now with this whole Covid thing, like, they've done the numbers and it's like 70%, it's women on the frontline. And none of the PPE even fits them properly. Because it's all based on the male body and so is the whole medical model itself. 

So we don’t know why men are dying and if they're not dying, they're at home using porn or creating revenge porn or forcing their partners into porn. That's if they’re letting their partners live. 

And then you have no shortage of men on the internet telling us how we need to be doing feminism. I can't help but think, do you not want to sort yourselves out first boys? Cause you know, improvement could be made. 

Daisy: Just a little bit, just a smidge. There's a more insidious sort of nature to the positivity thing, because then you've got the whole law of attraction bullshit, where they tell you that if bad things are happening to you, it's because you're not focusing on enough positive things. 

So in this way, we can blame people for their own cancer or we can blame them for their own poverty or whatever else, which Jess was talking about as well. And she's right on when she said that that's an individualist take that doesn't take class into consideration whatsoever. Complete crap. 

Gemma: Yeah. This whole idea of a just world is complete nonsense. Complete nonsense. But we do, we constantly do. And it's this whole idea, whenever you talk to someone who has done well for themselves, “oh, but well, you've just got to work hard. You've just got to work hard.” 

But then you'll have a look back in their background, and mum and dad would've bought the house and then, you know, they would've got that job because someone had paid for this or that, or mummy or daddy used to work there, or did their books or such and such a thing.

And do you know, there's always that massive helping hand. And whilst, you know, I absolutely don't resent my best mate can buy a house when she wants. And her mum's got like an account for that. She's got an account for when she gets married. She's got an account for all these things. Whilst I don't, like, begrudge her having that.

I'm not saying, “well, I don't have that, so you shouldn't have that.” What I'm saying is you have that, recognise that I don't, and recognise that that's not because you are better than me, it's because potluck.

Daisy:. Yeah. I mean, the people I know as well who have had these various leg ups in their life, they don't see them. 

It's like they're completely oblivious to that fact. When they've been given money for a car or they've had their driving lessons paid for, or they've had the deposit for their flat, or they've had the deposit to buy a house or, you know, they've just gone to their dad and said, “can I have a tenner for some phone credit?” Or they've got a parent who pays for a bloody contract phone for them.

Like, it's a completely different world when actually as a child, as the child, your parent is coming to you and saying, “can you lend me a fiver so that I can top up electric meter?” Like, the dynamics are completely bloody different and I find it so frustrating when they don't see the small gestures that help them out in ways that I will never have.

And I've never had access to, even from being 15, 16 year old, if I had any money, I had to help my mum because she needed help. So there was never going to be any inheritance or any bloody leg up of any kind. In fact, when my mum passed away, all that was left to sort through was a stack of debt. And we had to try and find a way to pay for a funeral cause there was no fund in place or anything like that. So then we had to sell all our shit to pay for the funeral.

And it really frustrates me when people don't understand the millions of small ways that they've been helped. And it can feel when you don't have that, and actually it's the inverse of that, a million small ways you've had to give to other people. It can feel like death by a thousand cuts in a lot of ways. You know, it's bloody hard. 

Gemma: And with every one of those, there's that same message, isn't there, that you are not good enough or they worked harder, whichever way they want to paint it. And so then when it comes to that idea of having your time or efforts being paid for, we're already at a disadvantage.

We couldn't do a business well because we already don't have that whole sense of things. And yeah, it's hard to not think we're screwed really, isn't it? This perhaps hasn't been a heart-warming chat, but I think…

Daisy: It’s real, it's true, and that's important. 

Gemma: Yeah. Just being aware, I think I'd appreciate, just being aware and sort of, you know, if we are going to have drinks, and I say, “oh, I've got to go at that time.”

Don't be like… “oh let’s go get something to eat,” because it doesn't occur to them that that will be a problem. It's just knowing that not everyone is in the same position that you are in. 

Daisy: Absolutely. To turn this out of a negative conversation and perhaps do a bit of a shit sandwich and come in with some nice things here.

What I will say is that it has been really, really uplifting to see the amount of women in our community who are showing care and consideration for the women trapped in their homes, especially poor women, trapped in their homes, dealing with abusers, domestic violence, not being able to leave, because that's the one thing that I have noticed is that everybody all at once, everybody's actually cares, and that really means a lot.

You know, I've had my own dealings with that in not too distant past. And to see everybody banding together to make sure that there's an awareness of this and those posts going around, you know, “message me about your gardening stuff,” or “message me about your book,” or your eyeliner or whatever else.

Everyone's got their own version of it, but, and Victoria Derbyshire, is that her name? I don't watch TV. Is it Victoria Derbyshire? Yeah. She wrote the number for the domestic violence hotline on her hand and was showing it on TV. And I just think this is, it's done something good in that it has raised the profile for this in a way I couldn't have imagined possible.

And it's crossed all class lines. And everybody's banding together. And I just think that's brilliant and I've really liked to see that happening because it is something…

Gemma: Do you think that that will stay though, because they can't, it used to be, didn't it, that, “oh, why don't you just leave?” That used to be the victim blaming thing. But in this unique situation that can't be used, do you think that that will stop being used after this or do you think it'll go back in? 

Daisy: You know, I'm not sure that anybody really understands it until either they've experienced it themselves or they've got a friend who's spoken to them and opened up to them about the situation.

Because like in my situation when I was dealing with an abusive partner, the council… I spoke to him on the phone and the council actually told him, “we don't have a duty to house you because you are named on the tenancy agreement, you have a legal right to reside in that property.” 

Five minutes later, they called me back and said, “we're just letting you know, we've told him he is got a legal right to reside in the property, so there's every chance he's coming right back.”

And it's like, wow. So what the fuck do I do now? Because I can't stop this abusive man from coming in my house. I can't get away from him. And then I remember speaking to Women's Aid about it and it's like, they can… especially now it's even more difficult, because they can put you up in a refuge, but you know yourself, you can be put anywhere in the bloody country. It’s wherever they've got a space.

And especially now where we we're dealing with the increased numbers of domestic violence and women trying to flee, there's just no places. So they're going to send you wherever there is a place. And it's like, then as a mother, you have to make that judgment call of, what's the safest option?

Do I keep my children in a familiar place with their friends and family where we know where everything is, we're not going to be completely isolated, and risk that he’s going to come back, or do we drop them in the middle of nowhere knowing that we'll be safe from him, but completely alone with no resources, nobody around.

And then it puts that pressure on women to make that judgment call. And the difficulty as well is, like, I know so many women who have had their children removed from them for not leaving, or if they did leave, they've lost their children for the potential risk of future harm, because she might get with another abusive partner and that puts the children at risk.

Gemma: Which completely contradicts what family court do. In the unlikely event that he has a conviction of it, they say, “no, he can have access.”

Daisy: Yep. I read about a case of a woman who was talking about it online. She was told by social services that she had to leave her abusive partner, so she left him. They removed the children from her care because of the risk of future emotional harm. They then placed the children in the care of the abuser that she had left because they told her to. 

It's just, the mental gymnastics that you have to pull to make that seem like a rational response to that situation is just enormous. And then when you see men talking about how there's bias in family courts and women always get what they want, I just think, fuck off. That’s never been true. 

Gemma: Again, the evidence shows different. In fact, the evidence is so different that there are so many kids ending up dead, that the family courts are now getting into trouble.

And frankly, why shouldn't they get into trouble. In any other job, if you weren't up to date on your training so badly that it was putting in lives at risk, you wouldn't be allowed to work. So why should judges get to do that? 

Daisy: The expectation that women be in the same room as their abusers, they have to talk to their abusers. And then there's women being told it's not rape, it's just forced sex. It's just astounding. The lack of care that's shown to victims of abuse, it's inconceivable, it's horrendous, and this is institutionalised. I don't think it's going away anytime soon. 

Gemma: And I'm not being funny, but, well, maybe I am a bit – so even if you don't get to that point, if you're in a relationship, you're taking a big risk. You have children with a man, you're taking a big risk. If you have a one night stand with a man who watches porn, he could end up killing you. So that's taking a risk. 

And even if he doesn't kill you, let's be honest, it's not going to be great. Cause it's not, is it? We all know about the orgasm gap, so that's not going to be great. So I mean, is it worth the risk?

Daisy: The problem is we don't talk to women about this risk. And I think there is a massive conspiracy towards keeping this information hidden from women because I sure as shit did not think… I was raised to believe it’s a dodgy minority, you know, it's a minority of men giving them all a bad name.

And we mustn't contribute to that because, bless them, we've got to think about them and their reputation and whatever else. So I didn't grow up thinking that this was going to be something that was going to be very difficult to avoid. I grew up thinking that if I was very unlucky, it might happen to me.

And then two relationships in, and then watching other friends go through the same, I began to realise that the scale of this problem was far worse than I'd been led to believe. Teach girls these things. 

Gemma: We teach girls that their red flags are making a fuss. Constantly. And the amount of gaslighting that goes on, it’s like they're allergic to accountability literally.

And I did a tweet the other day and I just said, there's a difference – it was a tweet, you know, for the Why Women Are Blamed For Everything, Jess's book. And I said, “why are we blamed for ruining his reputation when what we're actually doing is making his reputation accurate?”

Daisy: Yeah. And aside from that, it doesn't ruin their reputation. Grab her by the pussy is the president of the United States of America. It doesn't ruin their reputation. It will never ruin the reputation. 

Gemma: Yeah. Because they always say to the next person, it's that, “oh, I have a crazy ex-girlfriend.” It doesn't do anything. 

Daisy: That's a red flag hun! That's a red flag!

Gemma: Oh, yeah. Red flags: crazy ex-girlfriend, she doesn't let me see my kids, I’m a nice guy. Just run away. Just run away. Maybe kick them, laugh, then run away. But you know, everyone's different. Put your own spin on it.

I'd been on a date with a bloke once, it was a while ago, and he just started talking about his ex and said how he was thinking about going into talks with social services, and maybe going for custody. And I said, “oh right, what do you mean maybe? Cause if you’re concerned for your daughters, then you do it, wouldn't you?”

And he said, “yeah, I mean, I'm concerned about how she's been.” I said, “well, right. Well, if you're concerned about how she's been, then she can't be good enough to be a babysitter. So why are you not doing that then?” And then he, like, laughed it off. I didn't laugh specifically.

And then he asked me, he started talking about how he prefers girls who completely shave. And I was like, oh. I said, “oh right. How long have you been a paedophile then?” His face just dropped.

And I said, “do you not think social services will be concerned about that when you’re trying to get custody of your daughters?” And he said, “why would you say I'm a paedophile?” I said, “well, why do you want women’s genitals to look like they haven't hit puberty like little girls. Do you not think that's weird?” Yeah. I mean, we didn't have a second date. I cried and cried until I was sick. 

But I just think that they're just not used to accountability. I mean, even in the way that these domestic murders have been reported, it's all “Covid 19 lockdown drove him to this.” No, it's fucking not.

And even in how it's dealt with, why are we not kicking that perpetrator out? Yeah. Why are we not putting all them in shitty BnBs and taking away any electronic device because they can't be trusted not to use it for being horrible. And shoving them in places? We’re constantly framing women for it.

Daisy: I decided based on my, somewhat now credible feminist credentials that I would try and be a bit braver and try and get some sort of acknowledgement or confession out of my rapist. Because I thought, “well, you know, wouldn't it be nice if I could finally get some justice out of this situation?” And I got more than I bargained for with that conversation.

Because not only did he not acknowledge doing it, he didn't deny it, but he did that thing where he just sort of like didn't acknowledge anything I was saying. It was like reading two different conversations. When I showed my friends, that's what they said. But not only did he not acknowledge doing it, he tried to turn it around and say that actually I was the one who had been sexually assaulting him.

That is how anti-accountable he wants to be. And he will get away with that for the rest of his life. And I see his partner and yeah, that's how it's going to be. But it's ridiculous. They don't have to be accountable. They can just say whatever they want. And I had this moment where I just sat there and thought, I can't prove it.

He was in my bed because presumably, well, he was my partner and presumably I wanted him there. We were naked. How the hell can I then prove that what he did to me wasn't wanted? I can't get him to admit it. It's my word against his. And I just think how many millions of women are in exactly that same position?

Gemma: Oh, a million percent. I didn't have a lot of faith in the justice system. And then I decided that I would do a dissertation on how sexual objectification impacts access to justice for women and girls. And after knowing more about it, from the police to the CPS judges, I can say I have even less faith in the system.

And I think that, you know, the foxes are running the hen house and they're all bros protecting bros. And it's a fucking mess, an absolute mess. And whether it's paying for the children, or raping someone, they're happy to do the actions or lack of actions, but they're not happy to have the accountability.

Like there was that famous university study where there was all these scenarios, would you ever, and over half of the men said yes, but the question, would you ever rape anyone? And they all said no. They're happy to do the actions, but they're not happy with the consequence. 

The last man I was in a relationship with was a, like, domestic abuse relationship as well. And the thing that pushed me to sort of have the strength to be able to escape was that he raped me and I told him four times that I didn't want to, very clearly, and he carried on. 

And it was after saying to him, like, when I next saw him, “why did you do that?” He went, “yeah, I did kind of feel bad about that, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about this,” and just so completely dismissive. And I just…

I also felt like a bit of a fraud because I'm like, “you’re doing all this feminist stuff, and yet this guy is specifically treating you like an object.” Like you are disposable, you're replaceable. It doesn't matter if you rape her or not. You're doing all this work and yet you are letting it happen to you.

And I felt like a complete fraud.

Daisy: No, I completely relate to that because especially when you are poor and like if you've been living with a guy, and you're reliant on his income, and you're scared… Like, you've got that wait when you’re swapping your tax credits claim over from a joint claim to a single claim and you're thinking, “well, how am I going to survive in those weeks until that money comes back through?”

If you rely on him for anything in any way, all of a sudden you risk losing all that and being completely alone. But at the same time you're like, “well, I'm a feminist and I'm allowing this to continue.” But you're not really, I mean, you are, but you're not because it's not a choice. It's not a reasonable choice that anyone in their right mind should ever have to make. 

Gemma: Yeah, but you won't, or, I didn't want to ask anyone for help about it, I felt ashamed about it more. And to this day, he lives like around the corner from me. I could walk to his house in five minutes. I asked could I get a transfer to a different house. I told them why, no. I'm still to this day waiting for a change of the locks to happen because he has a key. 

Daisy: It's terrifying, isn't it? And like, I took him back so many fucking times, which then leaves you even more isolated because you're ashamed to tell someone that you took him back again. When the truth is that it was like, right, my choice is, go back to prostitution or take him back.

So then it's like, “well, I'll have to take him back and not tell anyone.” And then you are completely alone because the next time something really bad happens, you're in exactly the same situation, but you've got no one to talk to and no one to tell. “How are they going to view me? How are they going to look at me? And what's their opinion of me going to be?”

Knowing that everything I preach on a day-to-day basis is all basically bullshit because I don't apply it to my own circumstance, or at least I'm unable to apply it to my own circumstance. But it's hard to explain that to people, especially if they have that mindset of, “well, why don't you just leave?”

Oh, love. There is a stack of paperwork, of reasons I could give you on why women don't just bloody leave. And half of the battle is because, at its base, if a man has a legal right to reside in this house, where do you go from there? Really? I mean, you're looking at court, court action, non-mols (ed: non-molestation orders) and things like that.

But then they're going to tell him about that. And then if it's denied, you're in even more risk. And if you've got no proof of what you're saying, you've got no reason to suspect that they're going to grant that non-mol in the first place. So then it's like, “well, do I even dare apply for it, knowing they're going to tell him and what's going to happen if it's denied? Is he going to come and kill me in my sleep?” Because you don't know. And that's, that is a realistic outcome.

Gemma: Yeah. And you can't trust a lot, like, the services that you have to rely on, like, you know, like with the housing trying to get somewhere else, like the benefit system, they don't give a shit. And you know, and none of them know what they're doing.

And the police themselves. Of all the different professions you have in the UK, the most likely profession for someone, a domestic abuser, perpetrator, is a policeman. And there's been a consistent issue with police sexually exploiting women who try to report sexual crimes. So why would you literally put your life in their hands? Why would you?

So even if you had the means, which you don't, because the system keeps you purposefully exploitable and keeps your self-worth so low that you keep providing all this free childcare and free care work and free this and free that, even if you could battle all through that. Even if you survive the family court, the social services are fucking stupid and might take your kids off you anyway.

I think, well I'm bisexual, so just to show off I have the option, but generally speaking, get a vibrator and some ice cream girls, they’re not fucking worth the risk.

Daisy: Yeah, seriously. I keep trying to say that to my eldest. She's like, always chasing some boys cause she's at that age, they're all the same. And I'm like, “but seriously, stop and think – how many men or boys have done anything good for you?” And she'll say, “none.” 

And I'll say “right then, and how many of them have there been?” “A lot” “Okay. So are you getting the impression that there are any of them out there that are actually worth your time?” “No.” And do you still want to date them? “Yes.” “Okay. What's the point of this conversation?”  

Gemma: Our expectations are so low though. Even if they just reply to a message back. That's loads. 

Daisy: Yeah. Well I was saying the other day, that like, I was watching my neighbour with absolute amazement because he’s stood out there waiting for his bin to be pulled in and tidying his garden!

And I'm thinking, “oh my god, this woman's a wizard. What has she done to train him?” How she needs to impart this wisdom on everybody. But the bar is so bloody low. It's ridiculous. 

Gemma: It really is, how low the expectation is. And the difference in how we respond to single dads versus single mums, or just any dad. If just one dad comes to the school run once in a while we just like, you know.

Daisy: Oh, he's amazing! Oh, dad of the bloody year!

Gemma: And on the dating scene, a guy who says he has to see his kid at weekends, and how women respond to that ,versus how men respond to, “oh, I'm a single mum.” One's baggage. One is like, oh, gold stars. You know? 

I think we can just sum up by saying ice cream and vibrator and just, that's that. Just leave it at that. 

Daisy: Fuck it all off. Yeah, I agree. 

Gemma: Oh, instead of ice cream cake, which cake would you pick? What's your favourite?

Daisy: Mm, I'm going to have to go with coffee cake, I think. I love a coffee cake. It's got to be good though. 

Gemma: See, I don't drink coffee. My friends always slag me off because I don't offer them a brew as soon as they come around, cause it just doesn't occur to me cause I don't drink them. You don't have to say, they tell me, okay. . So what is it, would it be like a coffee flavour? Like would it have the same caffeine and effect as coffee does? Or is it just like kind of a flavour?

Daisy: I don't think there's enough in it really to give you any benefits from caffeine. It's just the flavour, which is really nice. Although I don't understand why they put walnuts on it. Like they look like monkey brains and I can't bring myself to eat them, so… 

Gemma: We always ate them at Christmas! No idea why, just cause we always have. 

Daisy: I remember my Auntie Bon used to have a bowl full of nuts every Christmas. Brazil nuts and walnuts, and I've never done it. I've never really…

Gemma: You pick out the chocolate raisin and ignore the rest. Let's be honest. That's what happens. 

Daisy: Exactly. Exactly. That's how you do Christmas. No fannying about with no bloody nuts. 

Gemma: Well, I mean, I think that's the perfect line to end on, frankly. No. fannying about with no nuts! Oh, that's perfect. We could not be more classy than that.

Thanks so much for doing this podcast with me. Yeah, I guess that's it really. Obviously I'll still be talking to you online, and loving your posts, and annoying you. But I've really enjoyed our chat tonight, really enjoyed it, and hopefully we can inspire more class stuff to happen soon. 

Daisy: I really hope so.

Gemma: Free cake. Just give us free cake cause we're poor. Even just that. No nuts.