Alice: Hello, and welcome to the FiLiA Podcast. This is Alice speaking, and today I'm speaking with Robyn Boosey of the campaigning group, IC Change. Hi Robyn. 

Robyn: Hi. 

Alice: And we are going to be talking about the Istanbul Convention, which is the Council of Europe Convention on Violence Against Women. What is it and why hasn't the UK government ratified it?

So firstly I'd like to properly introduce Robyn. Robyn is the co-director of the IC Change campaign and she's also manager of the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne's Preventing Violence Against Women Program. And she was previously the policy lead on West and Central Africa at Tearfund. So the Istanbul Convention was signed by the UK on the 8th of June 2012.

What was it and why is it so important?

Robyn: So the Istanbul Convention is a Council of Europe treaty. The full title is actually The Council of Europe Convention on Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence. So it's quite a mouthful to say, and it's been given the nickname of the Istanbul Convention to make it easier to talk about, and that's because it was open for signature in Istanbul, in Turkey in 2011.

It's the most comprehensive legal framework that exists to tackle violence against women and girls. It covers domestic violence, rape, sexual assaults, female gentle mutilation, so-called honour-based violence, forced marriage, and the Convention sets minimum standards for governments to meet when tackling violence against women.

So when a government ratifies the Convention, they're legally bound to follow it. They have to change their laws, they have to introduce practical measures, and they have to allocate resources to prevent and combat the violence against women and domestic violence. The Istanbul Convention been commended by UN Women as the gold standard approach for tackling violence against women.

It's been written by experts and is survivor-centred, and the reason this is so important is that although violence against women is very common in the UK, our national response has been completely inadequate. As you all know, women's services are in crisis. They're constantly having to advocate to the government for ongoing funding for their lifesaving work. Many face closure due to lack of funding. And services, for example, for black and minority women are particularly affected. Women's access to services also depends on a postcode lottery. 

Alongside that, prosecution rates are really low and prevention initiatives are quite rare. And we've all been hearing, in lockdown, how domestic abuse services have been sharing there's been an increase in the frequency and severity of domestic abuse at the moment, because survivors are forced to spend more time at home with their abusive partner. So now more than ever, we really need a comprehensive approach to addressing violence against women.

And I suppose what is particularly important is that at the moment, very little is guaranteed. Even if one government invested significantly in tackling violence against women and really heavily invested in having the best services possible, there's nothing to say that when it comes to the next election, the next government couldn't get rid of all of. So the Istanbul Convention is all about this line in the sand. It's about a set of minimum standards that we can hold whoever is in power to account on, and it will really help to accelerate our work to tackle violence against women in the UK. 

Alice: And which governments have ratified it?

Robyn: So far, 35 countries have already ratified the Convention, so these include, to name a few: Andorra, Denmark, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece. Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Malta, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Serbia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Turkey. 

I think it's worth naming all the countries and taking that time to show how we are slipping behind, and how this really stands out because the UK prides itself in its global leadership in tackling violence against women. But what we see is that our own house is not in order 

Alice: And I guess the other thing that that struck me there is that a lot of the countries you just named, they're a lot poorer than the UK. They don't have the funds available that we do, and yet they've still committed to this.

Robyn:. Yeah, there's a real range of countries in there, and each of those countries will have various levels of action on violence against women, some will be stronger than others. In some respects, the UK might have stronger measures in place, in certain aspects. But the point is, we haven't made this legal commitment yet, and they have. 

Alice: So the Istanbul Convention was signed eight years ago. When was IC Change formed, and what work have you been doing around the Convention?

Robyn: So, the IC Change campaign was set up about five and a half years ago. We are a volunteer-led campaign, and we are made up of women who have experienced violence, or have volunteered or worked in violence against women's services, or who are passionate about tackling this issue.

I launched the campaign with a friend, she's called Becca Bunce, she's amazing, if you don't know her, you should google her. 

Alice: Okay. 

Robyn: And we're currently running the campaign, we have three co-directors and a team of fantastic volunteers, and we campaign from our living rooms. We do this on top of our jobs and our other commitments, and we have a coalition of over 70 organisations, including Women's Aid, Rape Crisis, Ending Violence Against Women Coalition, Southall Black Sisters, Sisters of Frida, I won't list them all, but just to say that we have some absolutely brilliant women's organisations supporting the campaign, and bringing their expertise and voice to it as well.

One of the things I love about IC Change is that it's a real team effort. So in the campaign, we have a co-directorship model of leadership, and we have an absolutely fantastic team of volunteers, and we are working with a coalition of fantastic women's organisations who bring their expertise and their capacity to the campaign.

There's a real honour to work alongside so many brilliant people, and we have done a range of things such as building the coalition, building cross-party support amongst MPs and peers, we had the opportunity in 2017 to pass a private members’ bill, which meant that the government has to report annually on progress towards ratification. We're a passionate group of campaigners who are trying to use our spare time to see this difference for women in the UK. 

Alice: Yeah, and how receptive have MPs been towards your asks?

Robyn: There's been a lot of support across all parties for the campaign, and having the private members’ bill really helped to mobilise that support and have a ‘moment’ for people to gather around and add their voice.

We really didn't want it to become a party-political issue because violence against women is something that should have action regardless, for your political party, and the best action possible. So we've been really pleased with the support that we've received from MPs and peers. So there certainly is that support, and that's really helped.

Alice: So to return to, kind of, what the Convention is. It’s been described, you described it, as the gold standard, the most comprehensive international Convention on violence against women, and part of that is its understanding that violence can encompass a really wide range of behaviours. Can you talk us through what some of those forms of violence are?

Robyn: So the Convention covers domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, female gender mutilation, so-called honour-based violence, and forced marriage, to name a few, and it recognises that this violence and abuse can be physical, it can be psychological, it can be economic. It's really important that we have this wide definition of violence against women, so that what a wide range of women are experiencing is acknowledged as violence and abuse, and that there are provisions to support them and prevent that violence. 

Alice: And are these all already recognised as forms of violence against women in the UK? 

Robyn: Well, the government has, since signing the Convention, has made a number of efforts to strengthen our domestic legislation on violence against women.

So, we have better legislation on coercion, coercive and controlling behaviour. They've strengthened our legislation on female gentle mutilation. and they've improved it to include an extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction, which means  we can prosecute when it's carried out abroad, and they've also strengthened our legislation on the offense of forced marriage, created an offense of forced marriage, which also has extra-territorial jurisdiction.

So we are seeing the power of the Istanbul Convention already at work because it's been part of the impetus for these changes in legislation. So one of the priorities of the government in preparing to ratify has been to try and get its domestic legislation in order. So we are seeing that they are moving in this direction. The current gaps are that we still have some areas that need extra-territorial jurisdiction, and there's also gaps in terms of protections for migrant women, and psychological abuse provisions in Northern Ireland, which I'd be happy to share more about. 

Alice: Okay. And the other thing that I was wondering is, whether the Istanbul Convention goes beyond the protections that are enshrined in CEDAW, which some of our listeners will know is The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, which is why everyone calls it CEDAW. 

Robyn: It’s good to have these short names, so that we don't spend half the conversation saying the name.

Alice: Yeah, exactly!

Robyn: So, CEDAW and the Istanbul Convention have a different focus, but they complement and reinforce each other. So the Istanbul Convention scope is to address all forms of violence against women, whereas CEDAW’s focus is to address all forms of discrimination against women. And CEDAW doesn't have a specific provision on violence against women or domestic abuse.

However, CEDAW does have some key areas of violence prevention, such as tackling gender stereotypes, or addressing practices and laws that perpetuate gender inequality, or make violence against women acceptable. And also what we do see is that the CEDAW committee have interpreted gender-based violence to be a form of discrimination in the Convention, retrospectively.

There are a few ways that the Istanbul Convention goes further than CEDAW in the area of violence against women, because that is its focus. So some of those are that it contains more definitions, it really establishes a definition of violence against women, as a violation of human rights and as a form of discrimination against women. 

CEDAW doesn't include, as far as I'm aware, a definition of gender or gender-based violence or violence against women. But the Istanbul Convention does cover these, and it also defines the following forms of violence against women; psychological violence, stalking, physical violence, sexual violence including rape, forced marriage, forced abortion and forced sterilisation, and sexual harassment.

You're all going to know the Istanbul Convention by heart by the end of this podcast.

And one way that it goes further is by including economic harm as one of these types of violence against women. And I suppose the other main difference, the way that it goes a step further is that the Istanbul Convention measures are legally binding, when a state ratifies the Convention. There's actually a really great information sheet, that the Council of Europe have prepared, for those of you who would like to geek out a bit more over this.

So you can just google “Istanbul Convention and CEDAW” and there's some lovely tables to look into that in more detail. 

Alice: And the other really interesting thing about the Convention is that it recognises that violence is situated within systems of patriarchy, which is I guess a pretty unusual thing for an international Convention to do?

Robyn: Yes. It's really forward thinking. And I'm currently working in Melbourne in Victoria, and Victoria is leading the way internationally in the area of primary prevention in a lot of ways, and primary prevention is really about zooming out and saying, “why is violence against women happening on such a large scale, and how do we tackle that?”

It's really about that big cultural shift and recognising that it's happening in this social context of gender inequality, in particular manifestations of gender inequality. So I'm even more passionate about this than I was when I started the campaign, that recognition of that social context that makes violence against women more likely to happen and the need to really address those root causes if we want to see a change.

Alice: So, links to that; in ratifying the Convention, which I should point out that the UK hasn't done yet, and this is why we're talking about it, the UK would be committing to take preventative measures to stop violence from happening.

Robyn: Exactly. And so what's really great in terms of prevention is that it takes a really long-term approach. Often when we have conversations about violence against women, understandably we talk more about the immediate response of, “how do we support people who are experiencing this right now,” or “how do we do the early intervention?” And try to make those who are perhaps more likely or at risk of violence, to not experience it.

But then we often don't have time to zoom out and ask the questions of, “what's going on here,” and “what are the attitudes and behaviours, what are the norms, the practices, the structures that are making, creating this context, why this is happening.” And so the Istanbul Convention includes some measures that states have to do to start to look at this and really commit to doing this regularly.

One of those is around awareness raising, so they have to promote, or conduct regularly, awareness-raising campaigns and programs about the different forms of violence against women, the impacts on children, and the need to prevent such violence. 

And the Istanbul Convention also has strong measures on education. It says that states need to ensure that teaching material in formal curriculum and at all levels of education is there, on issues such as equality, non-stereotyped gender roles, mutual respect, non-violent conflict resolution, gender-based violence, and the right to personal integrity. So that's a really great starting point. If we can start to have conversations where it's integrated into education in schools, we start to see a part of what is needed to see the huge culture change that is required. 

Alice: And I guess that education point, that's something that – I mean, I left school seven years ago, but that was something that was very much not on the curriculum and never ever discussed in any of the classrooms that I was in.

Robyn: Absolutely, and I am embarrassed to say this, but it wasn't until I got to university and started to learn about women's rights as part of a course there, that I started to realise “oh, actually, things are not as equal as I thought.” And I realised, how much I normalise so many of my experiences of injustice, and of violence and abuse, that I just thought, “that's just normal.”

So it'd be wonderful to start to introduce that into our education. And in Victoria, this has started to happen. There's a program called Respectful Relationships, that's been rolled out in schools to start these conversations, and it's really quite amazing to see the impact that that can have. It's not everything, but it's a really important part of the puzzle. 

Alice: So the Convention was signed by the UK in 2012. Eight years later, it hasn't been ratified. So firstly, what's the difference between signing a Convention, and ratifying a Convention?

Robyn: That's a good question. The main difference is that the Istanbul Convention only becomes legally binding when it is ratified.

So signing a Convention indicates a certain level of support and agreement with the contents of the Convention, but until the government has ratified it, they haven't fully committed to it by law, and so we can't hold them to account by law. And then the second main difference with the Istanbul Convention, is that when they do ratify, the Council of Europe starts to hold them to account on their implementation of it.

And there's an independent committee called GREVIO, and they're responsible for monitoring the implementation of the Convention. So the government would have to regularly report back on their progress. And this is an opportunity for civil society to advocate for change, and to highlight where there are gaps, and where there needs to be improvement.

Alice: So civil society would be able to submit independently to GREVIO and say, “there's a gap here, there's a gap here”, is that right?

Robyn: Whenever the state is invited to submit a report on it, civil society would know, and would be able to raise awareness for the areas where there are issues.

Alice: Okay. And now that we've signed the Convention, is there any chance that we can back out of it? Or is the UK kind of on a one-way track to ratifying it?

Robyn: So, I suppose countries can pull out of Conventions at any point. It's really their will, whether they sign it, ratify it, and if they implement it. But what we have seen, is that the government have promised on numerous occasions over the years that they are fully committed to ratifying it. They intend to ratify it. So that's encouraging, they are intending to ratify and that they're trying to move towards that. 

What's frustrating is how painstakingly long it's taking them to do that. So hopefully we will eventually see ratification. But the question is how long will it take? 

Alice: Sure. And who is responsible for the delay? Like I guess that politically speaking, the UK hasn't had the smoothest time for the last kind of five years, but what would need to happen in order for the Convention to be ratified?

Robyn: Well today, the 8th of June, marks the eight year anniversary since the UK signed the Convention and we've had three prime ministers, four parliaments, and we are still waiting for them to keep their promise to ratify. We are one of the final countries in Europe that hasn't ratified yet, so we are keen to see this change.

And in terms of who's responsible for the delay; the government is responsible. Of course we understand that it has been a very difficult last few years. There have been a number of crises and complex situations, shall we say, for them to navigate. However, they do keep coming up with reasons, over the years they've kept coming up with reasons why they couldn't ratify and then taking a long time to make those changes.

One of the main reasons is that the government wants its domestic legislation to be in line with the Convention before it ratifies, which in some ways is good. It shows that the government is taking it seriously and they're not just ratifying it just to tick the box, but they are trying to align well with it in terms of legislation.

But this can take a long time, and sometimes taken longer than it could have taken. And there are three key gaps at the moment that the government is saying need to be addressed before they'll ratify. 

So the first one is called extra-territorial jurisdiction, which I believe one peer in the House of Lords once called it extra-terrestrial jurisdiction. Yes. As I've said, we do have this for some offenses, so for female gentle mutilation and forced marriage, but we don't have it for all the forms mentioned in the Convention. So what's needed is to extend our jurisdiction over the other forms, so that it means that if these types of violence are carried out abroad, the UK can still prosecute.

What we find is that if the country where it takes place doesn't prosecute, then at the moment, over the crimes that aren't covered, it's harder for them to then take action and prosecute. So the domestic abuse bill that's going through at the moment does contain key provisions on this. So we're hoping that this will actually be tied up and settled, if and when the bill is passed.

But another area where there's a gap, is protections for migrant women. So one of the great things about the Istanbul Convention is that it clearly says there should be no discrimination in the provisions for women, and regardless of various things, including their migration status. And what we see is that that's not the case for migrant women. The current domestic abuse bill does have gaps in its provision. So we are looking to support the campaigns led by migrant women in this space. So I'd really recommend looking at the campaign Step Up Migrant Women, which is led by the Latin American Women's Rights Service on this, and also the work of Southall Black Sisters.

Alice: Yeah. 

Robyn: And we are looking to amplify what they're doing, and support them to fill these gaps. So I would really encourage people to get behind that. 

And the third area is that Northern Ireland doesn't currently have legislation on psychological abuse. So they have actually, at the start of this year, introduced their own domestic abuse bill, which does include this provision. So we are hoping that if that domestic abuse bill goes through, that will also be tied up within the next year or so. 

But we are concerned that after these bills have passed, that the government will find another excuse to delay ratification or that they’ll just drag out the process. So that's why today, it's the eighth anniversary, and today we've tried to create some noise around it and we've asked organisations and parliamentarians to speak out and call for ratification.

So we've sent a letter signed by CEOs and directors of over 30 women's organisations to the Prime Minister and to the minister of safeguarding. And we've also asked parliamentarians across parties to speak out and call for ratification. 

And I suppose what I'd say is we, we really need your help. To any listeners, anyone involved in FiLiA, we really need your help to amplify the messages and keep the pressure up.

Alice: Yeah. And to listeners, there will be links to a blog about how you can join the call for change, and also other resources, below the podcast. So have a look and see whether you can send a letter or tweet your MP, and just get involved in that call. 

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but is there a reason why the government are delaying? Is it because it's inconvenient for them, or because it doesn't fit with their, kind of, domestic agenda? Like is there a kind of bigger political motivation behind their delay, or is it just really that they haven't got round to it yet? 

Robyn: To be fair, some of the things do take time.

So the fact that they have to, if their approach to ratifying a Convention is to make sure they've got the domestic legislation in place, that does take time. However, there are ways of prioritising these types of legislation. We've seen how some laws can go through really quickly, if the political will is there.

So I think it’s a mixture of, yes, these things take time, if that's the approach they want to take, but also it's just not a priority, and it's just further down their lists. And it's the sort of thing that will keep getting bumped down. And particularly if there's not the strong public voice from women's organisations, from parliamentarians, saying, “no, you said you'll do this, you have to do it. You have to keep your promise and you have to ratify.” 

And that's why we are trying to keep up the pressure so that they can't get away with not doing it. 

Alice: Yeah. So in a parliamentary debate in 2016, the then Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office said, “I want to assure members that the lack of ratification is not stopping us doing anything. We are already complying with every single aspect of the Convention. We exceed most of its criteria.” Is that true? 

Robyn: I think it's fair to say that most of the women's sector, and others, would disagree with this. However, what's really important to note is that, although the UK says they want to be compliant before they ratify, a country doesn't technically have to be compliant to ratify. It's not like an exam you’re preparing for that you then, you know, sit the exam and get the diploma and you have that forever. It's a set of standards that you’re saying you’re willing to be held accountable to. So rather than confirmation of compliance, ratification is more of a commitment on behalf of the government to being held accountable to that.

And that's why we’re asking for it to be ratified so that we can hold them to account if they fail to meet those standards. 

A policy fellow from LSE who was involved in the drafting process of the Convention has explained quite helpfully that the key important thing is to get ratification, and then to start to get effective state action going on its measures. 

The point is that the state makes a commitment to a constructive dialogue in the long term about it and working towards full implementation. So it's not that they can't ratify until they're compliant, it's a much longer journey than that.

That's why our priority is really to get ratification, so we have that powerful tool, to use to advocate for change. 

Alice: Yeah. And when and if they do ratify, and you and other violence against women organisations would be able to hold them to account, what would change for women in the UK?

Robyn: I think one of the first things is just really having that right to live life free from violence enshrined in law. That commitment from whoever is in power to recognise that that is a right, and that it has to be respected, and action has to be taken. In terms of really practical measures, I mean, there's so much, I won't go into all the details now, but I would really recommend reading the Istanbul Convention. I am biased, but it's written in a nice way, and that you'll just see all the gold in there.

But just to give some examples, some really practical things, it would help to ensure properly funded and more accessible support services for women. The government would have to ensure that survivors have access to services to support their recovery. So this would include legal and psychological support, financial assistance, housing, education, training, assistance in finding employment. It would mean that shelters would have to be accessible, appropriate, and in sufficient numbers. Sexual violence referral centres would also have to be appropriate, easily accessible, and in sufficient numbers. And there's actually a supporting document to the Convention, that qualifies what is understood by, “in sufficient numbers”. 

Alice: Yeah. 

Robyn: So you have a really specific, a really concrete measure to say, “for this geographical area, we should expect there to be X number of shelters or centres, which at the moment is not the case.” So it is really practical in those sense. Also, it means that the government has to ensure that there's 24/7 helplines, for all the types of violence covered. And that's more on the support side of things, support for people who are experiencing or have experienced the forms of violence.

But also for women, the way it really makes a difference is in helping to bring about the cultural change that we need to move towards gender equality and an end to violence against women, by introducing that teaching material, by those awareness raising campaigns. It is just a start, but it opens up the space for us to have these conversations, to share our experiences and to move towards that freedom. And to have that in law is really powerful.

Alice: And when you talk about the proper funding of women's refuges, is there a provision in there for BAME women? Because I know that in the UK at least, those shelters for BME women have been the ones that have been most, kind of, drastically hit by funding cuts.

Robyn: It talks about specialist services and says that there have to be enough specialist services. So, there are measures in there that would help to protect such services. And the Istanbul Convention does really recognise the different experiences of women, and the need for all women to have the protection and the support that they need. So there would certainly be measures that could be used to protect such services.

Alice: OK. A lot of international treaties have drawbacks, and listeners on here may be very strong advocates of CEDAW for example, but they still know that it has flaws. If you could take, like, a red pen and a highlighter, and go through the Istanbul Convention, is there anything that you would change, or anything that you would add to it?

Robyn: I mean, it is really quite comprehensive, covering the three pillars of prevention, protection, prosecution, all those forms of violence that I've mentioned, the non-discriminations. However, I suppose, like with CEDAW, and any legislation, our learning evolves over time. And so I'm sure we will look back and notice things that it hasn't covered and we'll need to look at, “how do we strengthen what we've got?”

But it is a really strong starting point for action right now, and it's the best thing that we've got to really bring about change. Having said, I think, from the perspective I've got right now of really focusing on primary prevention, I think one of the things I would've liked it to call for is for states to have a national prevention framework, like in Australia. Australia's the first country in the world to have a National Preventing Violence Against Women Framework, and it calls for a really coordinated strategic approach. So there is great prevention elements in the Convention that it calls for tackling stereotypes and inequalities. But it would be great if it could call for a prevention and a coordinated approach to that, because to really get this cultural change that we need, I mean, the change that we need, it needs to be deep. And so ad hoc campaigns and initiatives on their own, they're part of it, but they're not everything that we need.

Once we have ratification, that's something that we can build on and advocate for, alongside it. At least through the Convention, through ratification, the government commits by law to having these conversations, and we have space to feedback and call for even more than what the Convention calls for. It's really just those minimum standards, so we have a starting point of agreement. 

Alice: And last question, what can our listeners do to support IC Change? 

Robyn: Well, we really need your help. Firstly, we'd encourage you to sign our petition, which hopefully you'll be linked to in the description for this podcast.

Alice: Yep. 

Robyn: Encourage you to follow us on social media and support our actions to keep the pressure up. So by signing the petition, and following us on social media, you'll be able to keep up to date with what we are doing and how you can be supporting. And if you're part of a women's coalition, we encourage you to get in touch and perhaps join the coalition.

I think with IC Change, we've managed to build good support amongst organisations, parliamentarians, but I feel like we haven't quite tapped into the incredible power of women's rights activists in the UK. So we hope that through FiLiA, we can reach out to you, and that you'll be able to add your voice and help us to grow the campaign.

So please do sign and follow us on social media, it’s @ICchangeUK on Facebook and Twitter, and we look forward to working with you, to make this Convention a reality for women in the UK. 

Alice: Robyn Boosey, thank you very much. 

Robyn: Thank you. It's been great to be with you.