#80 

Gemma from FiLiA in conversation with Marie Laguerre.

Responses to being assaulted in the street.

Gemma:  Hi Marie, we're doing this podcast for FiLia, the feminist conference. How do you find the word feminist? So you've become quite a public feminist in the public sphere, have your experiences of the infamous F word been problematic? Have you had a lot of backlash from being a public feminist?

Marie: Actually, I didn't even need to say that I'm a feminist to have a backlash. I had a backlash because I'm a woman, because most people stood by my side because all I did is defend myself and stand up for myself after I was assaulted in the streets. And just the fact that I spoke in public, especially, it made some men, because it was mostly men, extremely hateful towards me. 

I didn't even have to say I was a feminist. And actually what I believe is that we don't really get hate for being feminist. We get hate for being women. I think those two are related. But on another, more personal, side it was a little bit difficult to be known as ‘the feminist’ for everyone, especially the family, because we all have like an uncle or those older people who don't really know what it means, or even the friends of my parents. And it made me have discussions that I didn't really want to have with those people that think that we are extremist and I had to deal with a lot of jokes for Christmas.

What I mean is, I don't always want to debate with everyone because some people are just going to be like stuck in their ideas. It's been a weird year coming out as a feminist in terms of just the fact that I'm a woman was enough to be hated by some people.

And the rest, when I say feminist I mean, I think I'm quite lucky because I have the support of most people, because I was assaulted and there is a video, so they can't say I'm making it up, even though some do actually. So it's easier to have the support. And I don't think all our sisters have the same chance because they are always going to say that they're lying or exaggerating. 

I have the approval of some people but we shouldn't need that. 

Gemma:  Do you think the backlash of this stuff is sort of related to the fact that men and accountability just don’t seem to mix very well?

Men don't like to take accountability for what they've done when they've done something wrong. They don't like to be told. 

And so we are vilified for even noticing it. 

Whenever a woman would say anything if a man does something wrong or a woman even saying, ‘no’, that the hatred is sort of about trying to get men to take accountability, like, for doing something wrong rather than: ‘oh she noticed that I just hit her’ -

Marie: Well you mean that, that men don't really acknowledge the accountability of what they do in general.

Gemma:  Women are called hateful for asking men to acknowledge what they do.

Marie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I think there is an amazing reversal of guilt that you can say like that.

And I think it's one of the bases of patriarchy, how they reverse everything. So just standing up for ourselves makes us hateful, like putting limits makes us hateful and things like that, for example, I think it's pretty interesting to compare misandry.

We are called misandrist. Just for ignoring them. And ignoring them, for them is as bad and violent as raping and murdering us. We've been taught a fake vision of the world and fake vision of who are the victims. And we're so used to being in an unequal world. I mean, women not being oppressed anymore is seen as domination from women. So yeah there is a big work of changing mentality in education to do, which is quite exhausting sometimes. 

Gemma: It is quite strange, isn't it? It sort of goes, men: rapists, beaters, exploiters, killers. Women: ‘stop that please.’

Marie: Yeah. Just like for example when, I don't know if you saw that, like when they ask women, what's their biggest fear on a date and they ask the same question to men. And men will say ‘being rejected’ or something, and women will say ‘well being raped and killed.’

So that says pretty much it.

Gemma: With the accountability stuff, what I noticed when reading about what happened to you, that a sentence that was in almost every article I read was that your attacker wasn't publicly named. And I found that interesting because obviously you were named. 

You've been able to use what happened to create things, but his name was protected even though he was the one that did something wrong. 

Do you think that shields him from accountability at all? 

Marie: I think this is the law. I assume because when I saw people were not naming him, I assume because there were many journalists in the audience room where there was the trial. So they all knew his name, but they also knew his face, but it's not allowed to take pictures and they didn't reveal his name. So I assumed that you're not allowed to. So I made sure I didn't do it as well, because I didn't want to be sued for that. But actually I also, at some point I said that we shouldn't target him, let me think just how to find the right words.

I think it was good that it didn't reveal his name because it was like the story gets so big in France that I felt some sort of guilt if he ended up being targeted in his personal life. Which is a little bit, I mean, I analysed it and it was a bit weird. Because I was feeling guilt because, you know, it's something we've been taught. And I realised I was feeling guilt because he was dragged in this media affair, but then I was like, ‘no, no, he deserved it.’ But it's crazy how sometimes our mind is reversed. And, but also I feel like it was better like that because that was something else I was going to say. I feel like I had to keep it that way also because he was not completely French. He was part Indonesian, and the problem in France is that we have racism, especially against immigrants, refugees, and Arabic people, Muslim people. And every time there is a story going into the media and it's about a man being violent to a woman and if it's, I would say like a non-white guy. You have them using our stories actually, that's what's really annoying. I mean, they use mine and they use my story for their own agenda. 

We know that they don't give a shit about women. They're just using this opportunity for their own hate and it's a little bit annoying because for me, I'm not saying like, depending on the colour of the men. No, no. We know that it's all men that can be violent. 

Gemma: We have a similar issue with some racists here that do the same with child abuse. An Asian man or a man of colour that does it, they're monsters, but if it's a white man, what was she wearing to bring it on? 

Marie: It's quite annoying because I agree that, I mean, actually my mother is from Lebanon, so I kind of know the culture in the Middle East. And I know it's shit for women, but honestly it's also really shitty for women in France as well. 

It's annoying that I have to kind of defend him because they are using my stories, you know. So it was like, it was good that his name was protected because otherwise it would've led to something bigger and that I would somehow, not be responsible but that would've started with my story and I'm against racism, does it make sense? 

Gemma: Oh yeah. Yeah, totally. Although, you know, he would've been the one to start it of course. And ironically, maybe he would've been anxious walking down the street, like you have to be all the time. But I totally understand what you're saying. You're a better person than he is. 

Marie: I was just wondering, because we are starting to discuss the details, but do you think I should explain really quick what happened, just tell the story from the beginning?

Okay. So last year in July 2018, I was walking down the street, coming back from work when I ran into a guy just like walking in the street and he harassed me. Like noise, comments, disgusting stuff so I told him to shut up. Actually, I didn't tell him. I told myself and he heard, which wasn't really what I intended. And then he got mad and I got mad. We probably insulted each other. He threw an ashtray at me because the scene happened next to a cafe. Luckily the ashtray didn't touch my face, but it was close. So after that I insulted him because I was absolutely pissed off that he had the guts to talk back to me.

I feel like I was completely in my rights to tell him to shut up and I was completely in my rights to be angry. And so I insulted him and I'm not going to regret it. And so he walked back to me and punched me in the face. The thing is that the whole scene was videotaped by the camera, by the CCTV camera of the cafe. And I got the video so I pressed charges. And after pressing charges, I posted the video on my social media explaining what happened, explaining how the situation and the insecurity that we as women have to live in, how it was absolutely intolerable and unacceptable. And the video became viral and it drew media attention.

I ended up being contacted by media from all over the world and gave interviews. A lot of interviews because I felt like I had a responsibility to use my voice to talk about violence against women and girls, because they were giving me this opportunity. And because I know that not many of us have a voice and actually, I don't think that we hear feminists enough in the mainstream media.

And also not always good kind of feminism. So I felt like I had a responsibility and I used this opportunity to like talk as much as I could about the issue and expand it beyond my case. Because of course it was not just my situation that was terrible, but the fact that it happens to girls and women pretty much all the time, all over the world. That it's completely a global issue. 

It was quite intense because it's been more than a year and I'm still contacted by media. So it's very exhausting takes a lot of time, takes a lot of energy.

But also thanks to the media the police actually really worked to find him. And they found the guy who punched me, there was a trial, he was sentenced to six months in jail. And so I got justice, which is actually pretty rare I think. 

There was also the cyber harassment, cyber bullying that I received online, which was violent… I don't know if I should continue speaking. 

Gemma: Well, for me even just like recounting your story, it’s the same theme he was doing something wrong and he didn't want accountability for it.

And your response was to immediately feel, you said the word responsibility there, you felt responsibility to other women and girls. And it's so strange that even when men do something wrong, they don't want accountability at all and in fact react violently when we even dare to give it to them.

But when we haven't done anything wrong, we still accept responsibility in some way. 

Marie: Yeah. That's true. Yeah, absolutely. 

Gemma: Actually in the UK, there's a debate going on at the moment that I'd like to get your opinion on. At the moment rape conviction rates are extremely low. In fact, they're at a historical low in the UK at the moment.

There were 1.3% chance of getting a conviction if you are raped. And there are some men calling for the men who are accused to be anonymous and not named, you know, like your attacker wasn't named.

Do you think that that would be a good idea or not? 

Marie: To make their names anonymous?

I guess there's probably reasons why it's anonymous probably to avoid the popular, like doing a popular trial to people, but this would be my good citizen opinion. But then my feminist opinion realised that there's no justice for girls and for women. And that we probably need to do a little bit more.

I would say that I don't have empathy for rapists and if it ruins their life, so be it, I think they deserve it. And I think that if men actually have risks like that, they're really risking their lives when they ruin other women's lives. Maybe they will think twice. There was a survey done asking men, for example, that if nobody would find out that they raped a woman, would they do it? And there was a high number of men saying ‘yes’. Like if they didn't risk anything. So I think that we have to punish them hard so they don't take a chance doing it. 

But then there's probably like other questions raised about the anonymity that I don't know about because I'm not a justice expert.

Gemma: At the moment they give the man's name out in the press because they think other victims may come forward. 

Marie:  It's just like putting them in jail for like nine months after raping a kid, a girl, and then just letting them out, thinking that they deserve a second chance. I think that their names should be everywhere so that girls and women can avoid them. I mean, that would be better for safety. 

Gemma: They say that accusations can ruin a man's life, but, you know, the president of America (USA) seems to be doing all right.

So when the attack was happening to you, the video showed other people in the cafe, including some of the men that were sat there, who looked pretty shocked and sort of went over to him. Do you think that men in general, when they see things like that happening or when they know their friends are doing stuff, do you think they do enough? 

Marie: I think that the example of my assault is a bit different than usual.

So first for my assault, what happened is that everything went really fast. So nobody really had time to realise what was happening and after the attack, I went back to the cafe and everybody was really supportive, especially with their words. Like nobody made me feel guilty. Everybody said that I reacted really well, even though I literally screamed, I insulted him, which is really not ladylike. Actually it is, it should be.

So they had like really, really good words. Both men and women. Everybody said that, yeah, what he did was unacceptable that I reacted really well, so they were great support to me, especially like hearing this right after the aggression where your brain is a little bit upside down. It's really important, but more in general, they definitely don't enough for sure. 

Many times in the suburb in Paris, it's a great example of people not moving. There are many, many stories of guys harassing and making women feel unsafe, like talking to them, threatening them, actually masturbating in front of them and people don't move most of the time.

I think there's probably some who do, but it's not really important. I mean, it's important, but the the problem is that many people don't. 

So yeah, I think there is this kind of issue here in Paris. Apparently it's not like that everywhere, and in general, I think that men need to understand that when they hear their friends who have sexist behaviour, they can be a judge. It's their responsibility to actually to stand up and say that that it's not okay. And I don't think men do that enough. I think that just between themselves, they actually get worse, too. But for my case it was a bit different. 

And actually after I posted the video, like I received many, many, many comments, usually from men that were angry that the guys at the cafe didn't, punch the guy.

They said, ‘yeah, if I were there, I would've protected you’ or ‘you should get a boyfriend to protect you’, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, ‘what's wrong with you?’ Like, you don't answer violence with violence. It's good that nobody pushed him because that way we were able to put him in jail.

Otherwise it would've made everything more complicated. and also what I would answer is that I don't need a man to protect me. I need men to stop attacking me. 

Gemma: If men stopped attacking us, we wouldn't need protecting like that. They are what we need protecting from. 

Marie: Exactly, just to come back to what you said earlier about the accountability of aggressor you were saying that me, I took the responsibility. He didn't. Actually there's a pretty good example of that is like, during the trial, his lawyer, so the funny thing that in the trial, there were only women. Like the judge was a woman. My lawyer was a woman and his lawyer was a woman. So it was a little bit satisfying and so his lawyer, actually, I didn't really like what she said, because of course she was defending him and she wasn't, nice to women what she said. 

Gemma: How can she defend his action? Like what did she say that she thought justified it? 

Marie:  So it's quite funny because me, when I went to press charges, I gave a version of what happened that was really specific and relied on the people who were at the scene, etcetera. I was really like specific, to make sure that I didn't say anything that didn't happen.

But him, he had a version when they arrested him that was pretty much close to what I said. And then he changed his version with the help of his lawyer and went from: ‘yeah, I made a comment of her outfit and made noise’ to: ‘oh no. I was just listening to music and singing.’ That's what his lawyer said.

I was like, how can you accept that? He went to the police and said something. I mean, when he was arrested, he was at the police and there is like an official paper that said that he said something else. So I think in my opinion, we have to try lightly with the voices of the aggressors because of course, no man is going to say yes, I raped her. They're all going to say they didn't do it. 

So, that was what she said. And she said, the lawyer kind of said that I was not real victim, things like that. I felt really frustrated and sad because I thought that it was already hard to hear that she was questioning everything I said, and I thought it was really hard to witness it. And especially I was thinking, how bad it could be for, for example, a rape victim to have to go through the justice system and hear the lawyer of the rapist say that she invented everything. It's their job, but it's just so awful and there's the whole trauma thing. 

So to come back to accountability, she said something that I thought was really interesting. She said something about my clothes. 

Gemma: Because of your outfit? 

Marie: Yeah, she used a very good, like an expression. Basically she said there was so much media attention and that he, being the symbol of this violence, wearing the clothes of this violence, was too much for him, too big for him.

So me, what I said is: ‘if he didn't want to wear those clothes and be this symbol, he just had to not harass and punch women.’ So yeah, I think that what she tried to say was it victimised him. And be like, just like what you say, that those accusations can ruin a man's lives. And what the society in general tries to do is always take the side of the man, and wants people to feel empathy to the men, being like ‘oh my God, they will lose their jobs’. But never feel empathy to the women. 

And it's actually super revealing when a society first worries about men. For example, I was invited to a TV show, which is quite lame like those TV shows that are not very serious, but they still speak about serious problems. But they want to make it viral, like they make sure people have a heated, arguments. And so then a lot of people watch it, but it's really not very serious. 

So we have like this kind of show I was invited there. I didn't really want to go, but I felt like I said responsible to have a voice. And so I went there and I had to debate with a woman that's really bad. She's the kind of woman that says that, oh, she doesn't know any women who are raped that feminists are bad winners. Like we already won. 

Like she has a lot of issues. And so I was invited to discuss MeToo, the French, MeToo and everybody on the sets on the TV set, they were all discussing how it was going too far. How is it was ruining men's lives, how Twitter was not a trial.  Everybody's speaking on everybody, it's really not serious. It's pretty bad to discuss serious matters like that. 

But when I finally got to speak, that's what I said. I said that it's actually really revealing. We are talking about something that happened and that led to millions of women talking about how they were sexually assaulted, sexually harassed, how they all went through violence coming from men and it's super worrying super bad. 

We know it, but the world didn't really know it that way. And the first thing that they want to talk about is how it's going ruin men's lives and how it's going too far. But the truth is actually, no man has lost their jobs, at least in France for that. No man was convicted after being accused on Twitter.

And actually I think that the convicted rapist went down the members, I think. Again, they reversed the situation. They all do that. So that's what I wanted to add about the accountability.

Gemma: Yeah, the idea is that our lives don't matter as much as them. It's that idea again that we're just objects.

Marie: We are merchandise. 

Gemma: So a lot of the time, a phrase that we hear when there are situations like yours and there's discussions afterwards, a phrase that's used a lot is: ‘oh, I'm a good guy’

And obviously the problem with that is that it's those men themselves giving themselves that badge that says ‘good guy’. So it's meaningless.

What do you think men should be doing to earn that badge? Rather than just saying, ‘oh, I'm a good guy’ and doing absolutely nothing and expecting a cookie because you didn't rape anyone that week.

What do you think that men should actively be doing? 

Marie: Well, first of all, I think there should always call out on their friends who have sexist behaviours starting from sexist jokes. They should say that it's really not funny. When they comment on women's bodies together, like they should call them out on that too, because it's really humiliating.

I used to be in an engineering school and there's a lot of guys that we were maybe 17% of women. I was sitting with my friends and those guys were commenting on the arses of my friends. It's almost worse when they do it in front of us. It's normal. And we have to accept it. 

Gemma: We have to think about our safety as well. Don't we? So it's difficult to know how to react. It's difficult to know how to react in those situations because there's also the safety element as well. As you found out yourself, if you say anything the reaction is violence because they feel so entitled to us.

Marie: Yes, absolutely. So that's why sadly they do listen to men more than us. So they have to use their voices. Of course they shouldn't speak over us. 

For example, in France, there is a guy who wrote a book about toxic masculinity, domination from men. And he's invited by radios, TV, and he's talking about it. And what he says is good, but everybody's like, ‘oh, we just discovered it now with Facebook’. Actually women have been talking about it for years, probably decades, probably centuries. And now that a man is saying it they're listening to him. So of course it's good that he's using his voice, but it's also the responsibility to tell people that they did their work based on women's work probably. 

And another thing that I think men should do is stop watching porn. And if they don't understand why, then they have to learn about it, they have to read about it. They have to do the work of understanding why it's bad. And it's not just because they're going to have problems with their penis, but it's because it's violence towards women.

I think that's one of the biggest issue of our time. It's a big issue because it's destroying women's and girls' lives because it's using their traumas to make money. It's raising the whole society into normalising violence towards women. And it's also sexualizing us. Like presenting us as sexual objects. And in my opinion, it's directly linked to the aggression we have to go through because when those guys see us, whether it's in the workplace, in the streets, everywhere, they only see sexual objects. And I think that's because they're addicted to porn a lot of them. I think they have to take responsibility for that, that they should know that it's directly linked to human trafficking and it's just not okay to get pleasure by looking at someone being raped. 

Gemma: And if our abuse is their entertainment then what chance have we got, if they're on a jury?

Marie: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. I read something about that earlier, like, but that's pretty much what you said. There is a trial and it's already influenced by that. 

Gemma: We've had I think it's 56 women so far this year where men who have murdered women have used copying porn as an excuse. They've killed them, but then said that they were copying pornography. So the charge was reduced to manslaughter because they've called it a ‘sexual accident’.

Marie: They were killed during sex?  

Gemma: Yeah, but they've done it so violently. One of the women, her eye was out of its socket.

They're saying it's a good enough reason to get off murder. But then they also say that it doesn't have importance and doesn't need regulating, so it’s contradictory.

Marie: Completely, and it's also really interesting how these days we call empowering everything that pleasures men. Like it's only empowering to women to be strangled and beaten during sex and not men. And it's also funny how it's empowering to women to do porn and to do prostitution and not for men. 

And like all those things that they make us believe it's empowering, but it's really just for the male gaze and yeah. 

They reverse everything. They put everything upside down. 

I think that, to sum it up, I think men have a huge work to do. They have to work on themselves. It's not hard to analyse the problems, you know, like it's not hard to see that there's a problem with responses. There is a problem with the sexist joke. There's a problem with making sexist comments to your colleague. There is a problem with so many things. 

Gemma: So just be good humans, men, Stop being shit. 

Marie: Yeah. Just see women as human beings. That's not so hard. And there's so much, so many things to read just online to understand. So yeah, they can just do that. 

Gemma: If you could have a call to action for what women and girls should do, if you could address every woman and girl around the world and tell them to do something, what would you tell them to do? 

Marie: First talk to each other as women because patriarchy also relies on division between women.

So I feel like when we talk to each other, when we spend time together, just between us, it's empowering. Like really empowering. We realize that what we go through is not an individual problem, but a collective problem, a global problem. So I feel like it makes us stronger. We feel less alone and there's so many things to say to girls and women, but never, never think that we cannot do something less than a boy or than a man. That's absolutely not true.

I'm going to get backlash for saying that, but I think that because we have to deal with so much shit from the moment we are born, I think we might be stronger than men because we just have to deal with violence.

We have to find ways to survive. And yeah, we also have to do like twice the work a man has to do for the same job and things like that. So in the end, I think we're stronger. And the same, like when a woman has to raise her children and go to work at the same time, just how much organization that takes.

So, yeah, I think that it's important that we realise how strong we are and also that we shouldn't have to be a super superwoman to survive, you know. Also what's very important I think is just repeat and repeat and repeat to all the girls and women that when we face violence, when a man hurts us, it's never, never, never our fault. Like never, the victim is never guilty.

And that what they do is not okay. Even if the society says it's okay. Now I'm thinking about women from all over the world, the ones who don't have the laws to protect them. And even if their society or our society says what a man did to you is okay, if someone hurts you, it's not okay. They shouldn't be doing it and it's not your fault. And that we're stronger than we think. And that we should talk to each other and that we have to build a resistance together between women. That is really important. And that we are allowed to say no. 

There are so many things to say and also that when we are assaulted, when we are harassed, whatever we do in reaction to that situation is okay.

It's okay to flee. It's okay to ignore. If you're in shock and don't do anything, it's okay. It's normal. If you get super angry, it's normal. It's okay. Don't let anyone tell you how to react to the situation because they have no idea because you are the one in the situation. What the decision we take is the best decision because we are the best judge to decide what to do. I think that every woman and every girl should remove all the guilt that we have in ourselves, because we definitely carry a lot.

Even if it's like, ‘I didn't press charges’, ‘I wasn't strong enough’, blah, blah, blah. There's so much guilt that we carry and it is time to let it go. It doesn't belong to us. Does it? No, no, no, no. Same as the violence. When someone's violent to you, then you have this violence inside of you and it can lead to destructive behaviours towards others and towards ourselves. And usually women get destructive towards themselves. And even that, it doesn't belong to us and it's okay to get help. And actually it's important to get help and it does get better. 

Gemma: Thank you so much for answering my questions today. I'm also really grateful that my dog behaved.

Is there anything else that you'd like to add? 

Marie: Yeah, there's something I'd like to talk about because I think it's a rather new subject. I mean, of course as a feminist, we know it, but like the justice and everything is not really up to date. It's what I was saying earlier about the cyber harassment. It’s important for me to talk about it because when I started receiving insults and death threats, rape threats, it felt more violent than the assault itself and cyber harassment can take many forms.

But the goal of it is to silence us and destroy us. There's so much hate in their world. And I also thought it was quite representative of the problems in terms of misogyny. Some people told me that the video was staged, that it was a conspiracy or something done by the government to pass a law, something like that.

And I thought it was quite interesting how even when there is a video, some men will never believe us because for them we are deeply liars. We are manipulative. And I think that's quite interesting. 

And on the other hand, it's also really interesting how my video got viral because you can actually see the punch. You can actually see the man hit me. And also it was quite interesting because women have been telling stories like that for years. Or definitely more, for decades. And it's not until they can actually see it with their own eyes that they take it seriously.

And again, it's really interesting. It shows how we're not trusted. We're always told that we're exaggerating. I also received many messages that I thought was, really revealing. Like calling me a liar, calling me someone to take advantage to get famous or money or things like that, which honestly, why would anyone do that? I mean, it doesn't make sense. 

And again it's really interesting because it’s always saying that we are doing things for the attention. Like, for example, the word ‘attention’ is really annoying me because it's completely sexist. 

I was also insulted for my looks like telling me that I was too ugly to be hit on, which is completely stupid because it was not flirting. It was harassment. It was domination. And also we know that whatever we look like doesn't mean anything, because like I said, it's about dominating, about the power. And it's just like, when they say about a woman that she was too ugly to be raped. It's the same level of stupidities. 

Gemma: They say the same things thy said to the suffragettes. They haven't really come up with anything new.

Marie: Yeah, exactly. Just to say that we also press charges for that with my lawyer and there's an investigation ongoing, and I really hope that some of those men who threaten me, insulted me online are going to be found and that there is going to be a trial. And I really want to see them and look in them in the eyes. 

Gemma: You only get defensive if the cap fits, so it makes you wonder if those men are getting so defensive about another man that they don't know about doing something like that. Why are they getting so defensive? 

Marie: I think it tells a lot about their own behaviours, like who they choose to defend tells a lot about what they think is okay to do. 

And also one last thing. There is another way of cyber harassment I think it's important to talk about. The French ministry actually deal with it very often. It's when your page is reported by some anti-feminist like they report it massively, and then you end up being blocked. This is what happened to me when I was all over the media and they reported like some completely innocent posts and I got deleted and I got blocked and it didn't make any sense.

And it was really frustrating because the guys who threatened me, they were never blocked. They haven't been arrested yet. While me and other fellow feminists, we are being blocked often. And like you said, it's a way to silence us and it's actually working. It's like a very long battle. Very frustrating.

Gemma: It's men protecting each other. 

Marie: It's a man justice. 

 Gemma: Yeah, we need the same solidarity in women that men seem to have. 

Marie: Yeah, absolutely. And we're not even trying to be like them because we definitely don't want to be violent like them. We don't want to be able to rape and not being convicted. We just want to get on with our lives, I guess. 

Gemma: Yeah. We say: ‘would you mind stop abusing us?’ They respond:  ‘you're so hateful’ 

Marie: Pretty much, but reasonable is already too much for them. If they could, they would probably remove our mouth so that we don't or can't speak 

Gemma: Yeah, I think so. I mean the Handmaid's Tale has just finished showing, but it's, it's not that far, is it really?

Marie: It could get that bad. Very fast. So we always have to be careful. I think that's also an important message that we always, always have to be careful. We can never underestimate the power of men and how they can take back our rights. We have to always be cautious and stick to each other and never stop fighting. 

Gemma: Well, I'll stand next to you in the fight anytime. And I'm sure all the women that are going to come to hear FiLia will feel just the same. Fight together side by side. 

Marie: I’m really excited about meeting so many feminists. I think it's going to be like a safe space away from violence. So it's going to be really good for the mind for the heart and definitely going to make us strong. And I'm really happy to like talk, not with the media for once, but like with women that know what I'm going to be talking about.

Gemma: And not have to every justify every sentence because we already get it. 

Thanks so much. See you then take care. Thank you.