Sadia from FiLiA meets Saba Ismail Co-founder of Aware Girls in Pakistan. 

Sadia: Hello everybody, thank you for joining us once again, my name is Sadia and I'm joined today by Saba Ismail who is going to be talking about her sister Gulalai Ismail and is best placed to tell you about everything that's happening so thank you so much for calling us Saba. 

Saba: Thank you so much, Sadia.

I'm the co-founder of young women’s organization called Aware Girls which has been working on promoting leadership among young women and girls, so that they can act as agents of change in equality and peace in their communities.

I co-founded the organisation along with my sister when I was 15 and my sister Gulalai was 16. We have been working for a number of years on gender equality, women’s empowerment and countering and preventing violent religious extremism. And we have been able to organise around 30 youth groups of peace activists who have saved the lives of more than 10,000 young people by preventing them from joining the militant organisation and who have worked with thousands of young people to promote values of tolerance and nonviolence.

I'll just giving you this brief background of about my work and my sister's work. And my sister is an award-winning human rights activist. But at this time she's she's forced into hiding from almost two and a half months because she has been charged with terrorism, treason, and sedition because she highlighted the incidence of sexual violence by the armed forces in the conflict zones of Pakistan. 

She brought the stories to the mainstream media and because she was critical of the war economy in Pakistan. And she was critical of the sexual violence that is happening in that it was reported by multiple women in the conflict zones of Pakistan.

The state has charged her with terrorism and sedation. And there are multiple, false information reports against her, police cases against her and the state, the military wants to arrest her anytime. There are raids happening at our residence in Islamabad, families and relative’s houses have been raided and friends, and family associates have been illegally abducted and have been tortured, even electrocuted to find out about the whereabouts of Gulalai.

The situation is really the crackdown that is happening on my family and my sister is only because she showed solidarity with this movement, the Pashtun Protection Movement. And, the crackdown has been intensified a lot and when after these two months, when the state was unable to arrest my sister they filed a case, they charged my parents in a police case in terrorism. 

Sadia: So where is Gulalai now? 

Saba: On 25th of June the Pakistan permanent mission in Geneva communicated to the UN Human Race Commission offices that Gulalai is in their custody. She has been presented to a magistrate and she's in the custody of the Pakistani authorities. We don't have contact with Gulalai but we know that this is a lie and that she's in hiding. 

Sadia: So have you had any contact with her? Is it even safe to make contact with you?  

Saba:  No, the family have lost contact with her from quite a lot of time now. The day these police cases were registered against her. She went into hiding. We don't have contact with her and even the way my family is being under surveillance and their communication being tapped all the time, it's extremely unsafe for her to even contact them. It's even hard for me to contact them from here. I'm based in New York. but it's not even safe to talk about anything to my parents. My parents are back in Pakistan. 

There has been under continuous surveillance even my parents and my younger sister telephones were taken away by these law enforcement agencies. CCTV system that was installed at our home for the protection of our family, that was also taken away by these agencies. It’s highly possible that their telephones are already bugged and the security system is already bugged by these agencies. So it's a very dangerous situation in Pakistan for my family.

And overall as well, it's very, very dangerous situation overall service society in Pakistan. And Pakistan is a really dark place these days. 

Sadia: Okay, is it possible to get your family out of Pakistan safely? Is that even a possibility? 

 Saba: So to answer your question, Gulalai is already being blacklisted, which bans her travel from the country.

She has been put on an exit control list, which is a no-fly list. And she was put on this exit control list in 2018 when she was traveling back from a meeting from London and in Islamabad about airport had her passport confiscated. And she was detained for one day by the federal investigative agency and she was put on this list.

After these two cases, after these cases of terrorism and sedation were made against her she continued to be put on this exit control list and the Ministry of Interior sent a letter to our family saying that the reason that was given to put her on exit control list was that, the letter says that considering the recommendation of security agency was that there is a likelihood that Gulalai would undertake travel abroad and her anti-state speeches would be damaging for the country. 

Basically her name was put by the ISI, which is the security agency. And later on the Cabinet also approved, because Cabinet is also under the influence of the law enforcement of this security agency.

So she remains on exit control list. And then there is a, another concern definitely is that her pictures have already been shared and pasted across all the borders around Pakistan. 

There are people who have reportedly told us that they have seen her pictures being posted on the borders between Pakistan, Afghanistan and even borders up the north in the country. So everywhere because she's been there, they are treating her as a terrorist. And, you know there are security personnel deployed only to watch out for her across the borders. 

Instead the country should celebrate human rights defenders like Gulalai she should be celebrated and, be a role model for other young girls so that they can have the inspiration. But the state and these law enforcement agencies are targeting her and they're promoting a culture of fear, also, you know, giving this message to other young women and girls that if you ever dare to become brave by standing up for your rights, we will treat you like a terrorist. 

This is what is happening that she does have the freedom of mobility. The security agencies are controlling everything. The democratic government do not have the power to take any decision so definitely it's not possible, to do something that we can think about. 

Sadia: It's crazy because in the UK we have countless people that criticise 

 Britain and the British government for some of the things that they're doing and are simultaneously doing human rights work. And they're celebrated as heroes as Gulalai should be.

What's concerning is that rather than being celebrated, that she's being persecuted. It's something that we couldn't even contemplate in Britain so for people that don't know, the FIA is like the Pakistani FBI, the ISI is like the Pakistani CIA. They've both gone after her because of her work from what Saba is saying all of the agencies are working to ensure that she can't speak.

And actually she's not saying anything massively damaging to Pakistan. And for a lot of countries in the Anglosphere, they would probably use some of the things that she's saying, criticising Pakistan and take it as valid criticism and something that they need to work on rather than treating her as she's a perpetrator or a terrorist for that matter. That is absolutely disgusting. 

But Saba, what I wanted to ask you, something you mentioned earlier, the Pashtun Protection Movement. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? What is it and is this state working with this movement?

Saba: Okay, so Pashtun Protection Movement, it's a grass roots locally led nonviolent movement. They have certain demands that they're asking for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to find out the human rights abuses in the military operations conducted in the tribal areas.

Their demand is to bring an end to enforced disappearances and also to present the missing persons, which is a big issue in Pakistan. So the demand is to present the missing persons to courts and to clear the cases and to bring them in the court through a proper legal procedure.

Gulalai not part of the decision making processes of this movement. She showed her solidarity to this movement because she has been working on the issues of peace and countering and preventing violent extremism and Woman Peace and Security for like a number of years.

She showed solidarity to this movement, which is locally led and, they have their genuine demands, but Gulalai’s main objective to show the solidarity with this movement was to ensure that feminist voices are included in this movement and that women's voices are not left behind because she saw that this is a movement and she wanted to make sure that women also be part of this movement and they're not left behind once again. 

What happened basically when she showed her support to this movement, that's when the crackdown even got worse, she was already facing a lot of crackdown from the past one year, 

There was a blasphemy campaign against her. She was accused of this blasphemy and there was this social media campaign against her in which she was threatened to be killed. The social media campaign against her accusing of this blasphemy was already happening.

But what actually happened was the reason why the crackdown got even worse and worse when Gulalai visited the north, the Yazidistan area, when she actually met with women who shared the stories of sexual assaults and abuse from the military. And when she started speaking up about those stories and when she started bringing those stories to the mainstream in January 2019, earlier this year, there's a young boy who videoed military personnel barging into his home and harassing his mother. This video was made by this young boy who was probably 11 to 13 years old, very young. When Gulalai saw that video, she organised a delegation of other five women, they all together went to show solidarity with this woman who spoke out against the harassment and this delegation had women like political workers, activists, former parliamentarians. So they went to show solidarity. And when they went, this delegation met several other women with similar stories. Some of them recorded their stories to ensure that they are being told to the rest of the world. 

There was this one story that I specifically remember, it was not easy to read those stories but when Gulalai told them and shared on her social media as well, that this one old woman whose name is Nura Bibi, she has a picture of like a torn piece of paper in her hand. And there are 25 lines drawn on this paper. This picture about this woman, Nura Bibi, who drew a line on this piece of paper. Every time she was abused and harassed. And this was her form of documentation.

This woman is an illiterate woman, the literacy rate is so low or even 0% in, in, in these areas for women, you know, the literacy percentage is so low and still this woman became so brave to document her story and then to tell this to other people. At the end she had to leave her area because it got too much, her dignity was violated, her privacy was violated. So she had to leave the area but she told her story. 

And I think, this is the Me Too movement in Pakistan. We see the elite classes coming up and forward and sharing their stories. But this, I think this is definitely the Me Too movement where women who are from those Yazidistan areas are speaking up and therefore the first time speaking up against this. So when Gulalai and the delegation started talking about these incidents, we have seen that the crackdown intensified in a way that only a few days after this visit Gulalai was enforcedly disappeared.

She was disappeared by the state for about 40 hours. After a few days on 5th of February, she was participating in a protest that was held against the brutal murder of Arman Loni who was a member of the Pashtun movement, Gulalai was arrested from there. And there were other 64 young men, activists of the movement also arrested.

 The arrest of those 64 young men was made public their names being shared their locations, in police stations, everything, except Gulalai. Nothing was shared about her. The state denied where she was kept and everything.

It took us 40 hours and later on released with a lot of international pressure and with a lot of public pressure, she was trending on Twitter and it was like the family was given all this false information about her whereabouts. We were told that she's being tortured. We were being told a lot of different very disturbing things. 

Only after a few days after she visited Yazidistan she was forcefully disappeared. And when she was released she still participated in everything. Being disappeared is definitely a very big issue in Pakistan being missing or like anywhere. It's not easy, but she still continued. 

And then you saw that in April, 2019, the DG ISPR, which is the spokesperson of the armed forces in Pakistan. He held a press conference and he threatened that time for the Pashtun movement activist is up for them. The DG ISPR, the major general spokespersons of the Pakistan armed forces. This video, this press conference, and they said, time is up for this movement. Your time is up. You don't have any more time. 

And then suddenly after this press conference, we saw that videos on YouTube were already like streaming on, on YouTube and mentioning that legal action will be taken against Gulalai that legal action will be also taken against two other parliamentarians and they are in prison from this for more than two months also on the charges of terrorism and murder and all that crazy stuff. 

The lawyers wanted to meet them the other day. They were not allowed. Parliamentarians want to meet with them or politician. They're not allowed to meet. They don't have yet even a single time. There has been no court hearing. Every time they are given a court date and then the judge is on leave on that date. Judge, even do not come to the court when they have to. When they appear in the court and they have been moved from one jail to another jail.

The only thing that they did was that they highlighted human rights abuses in the tribal age of Pakistan. And they were the elected parliamentarians, but you know, they're still in jail, there should be a legal process to arrest parliamentarians. 

There is a legal process to arrest parliamentarians in the process in Pakistan in the parliament, nothing was followed in this case of the Parliamentarians. They have been sharing the same concern as Gulalai shared. As soon as this press conference was done by the DGI SPR the spokesperson of the Pakistan armed forces, the first crackdown happened against my sister. 

And then only two days after that these two parliamentarian were falsely accused in terrorism, there was this false case against them that they have attacked a military check post in north Yazidistan but there were multiple videos that emerged after that people shared that these people were nonviolent. They had no weapons at all and the military just openly fired on them and multiple people killed more than 12 people were killed by the law enforcement agencies and these people were shielding these two parliamentarians. Many people got wounded.

The international media should talk about it. There is evidence in the form of videos, multiple videos that these people were non-violent. They were attacked openly by the military, just because they were holding a protest. And this protest was also because a woman was abused. 

What happens is that, when there is a terror incident, what the military does is, they will take out all the people in the village and they will beat them in the public and what happened in one of those incidents, a woman, either arm or leg was broken during this public beating. And these two parliamentarians were having this protest against that incident. 

But, you know, the people who are being killed. There should be independent inquiries. There should be international human rights organisations coming up, asking for inquiries, but we don't see it. There should be more. This is ripping up the right to freedom of expression, the right to freedom of assembly and the right to freedom of protest.

Sadia: The right to challenge malpractice within the country is really, really crucial as well. You know, they can't claim to be all knowing and godlike politicians that's just not humanly possible. And it's part of being a democracy to allow your citizens that are voting for you to challenge you and question your ill behaviour, but the trouble is in Pakistan, if you are poor, if you're illiterate, you are also vulnerable. You become an easy target, but also you become the play thing of many people too. The army knows that women are illiterate. They know that they're not going to be able to go and write a statement.

There was a case a few years ago of a woman in a tribal area who was gang raped by a group of men. And when she went to the police station, the police officer knowing full well that she was illiterate, just told her to put a thumbprint and print at the bottom of the page so he could write the statement. And he was very much in the pocket of the perpetrators so he wrote a false statement. 

So illiteracy is really, really beneficial. Particularly female illiteracy is doubly beneficial for perpetrators, abusers, predatory men within our communities, because then they can't be challenged for some of the things that they are doing to women.

And also how they're disappearing men. They think that they can't be challenged. The interesting thing is that Pakistan, when these things are brought to light, rather than challenging the perpetrators, they go after the amazing, absolutely fucking amazing people that challenge these abuses, that are in the firing line anyway, from potential abusers, they are then prosecuted by the state, and treated like terrorists by the state for highlighting the state's incapacity to do the best for the most vulnerable within that society.  It’s disgusting.

But what I do have is a very serious and urgent plea for any anybody that's listening that is a journalist or knows journalists to connect with Saba so that we can try and make this a bit of a media storm for Pakistan and really highlight what has been happening in Pakistan. And I really am desperately urging women to try and help us connect with journalists.

 When a few years ago, the Delhi rape case happened in Delhi, for some reason, that case created a media storm and gang rapes and hideous, violent sexual assaults and rapes have been happening in India since the beginning of time. But for some reason that caught the media attention and it forced change in India.

We would like that same level of media attention for Gulalai’s case when she's done nothing wrong, other than challenging the most hideous abuses within our country. We would like that same media attention so we can force Pakistan's hand in doing something. We need to embarrass Pakistan right now.

This is not acceptable on any level. The fact that illiterate women are being raped because they know full well they can't document their abuses. The fact that illiterate men are just going missing and nobody can challenge it. And those that are then highlighting and challenging these issues are being arrested and disappeared or being accused of terrorism, that can't carry on. Absolutely not. 

Saba: Yes, Sadia. I completely agree with you. The way my family has been harassed by these multiple raids that started from 24th of May. Another raid on 27th May another raid on 4th June, another raid on 4th of July, another raid on families, relatives and friends. Our family driver was abducted. He was tortured for eight hours. Toxins were injected in his body. And he was offered bribe to be there informant. He was tortured for eight hours. After that a very close friend of Gulalai was abducted. He was tortured for 13 hours. He was electrocuted, given electrical shocks more than 12 times while he was handcuffed. It is really brutal. 

And, you know, even the staff that worked with Gulalai, their house was raided just a couple days ago on 6th of August in the middle of the night at 2:40 AM. there were people who just, you know, they didn't like rang the bell, they jumped over the walls of their house and they offered a bribe. They offered them a good job, a well-paid job. They offered foreign settlement too.

From not a single point of view do I see that this is a democracy in Pakistan.

This is a very huge control by the military. I have been engaging the civilian government in international advocacy, the UN has written several letters. The European Union have sent several letters and meetings, there is a lot happening at international level. There was an article in the New York times when Imran Khan the Prime Minister of the country was visiting Washington DC. The president of USA asked direct question about the persecution of Gulalai and my family, the question was not answered. He avoided answering the question. 

There is a lot happening at the international level. Of course we are activists and we will do the right thing. And the right thing is to engage the civilian government and ask them to stop this persecution. But the crackdown is getting intense. This is really important to understand that at this point there is shrinking spaces for civil society at large in Pakistan, and the way these democratic voices and voices of dissent are being shut down in Pakistan.

It's very difficult for a civil society organisation to work. Also, the laws that were developed for countering terrorism and preventing people for cyber-crimes are also being increasingly used against human rights defenders and journalists. So, you know, Pakistan is a country where there are, despite there are dozens of private channels.

Media is not free. And when media is not free, we mean that citizens are not free. They have been robbed of their right to freedom of expression. So, you know, like three media channels were taken off air because they broadcasted a press conference of an opposition leader. 

On the other hand, some amazing progressive journalists have been removed from their jobs because they were seen as too critical to the state.

And we have seen, very systematic life threatening social media campaigns run against descent. And definitely it is one of the biggest crime against humanity that you deprive them of the right to freedom of expression. These laws are used against human rights defenders in Pakistan.

In Pakistan, there are multiple examples, bloggers being abducted for being too critical of the state. Professors charged in a case of sedition, because they're critical of the state. So it's just like everybody who has a voice of dissent who thinks differently, who wants to question the pro-war economy and these pro-war policies, they are being shut down and silenced in one way or another.

And as I mentioned, also, the cases of these two parliamentarian it's just outrageous to see that the military is openly doing all these things whether it's a human rights activist, whether it's a journalist, whether it's a blogger, whoever has a different opinion, whoever they do not agree with.

They only know that they will either abduct people or torture people or disappear them instead of improving the policies, but also it's very important to mention that the military at this point is running everywhere in Pakistan, whether it's the economic policies or whether it's the educational policies.

Sadia: So it's actually worse than that, isn't it? The Pakistani army has fingers in all pies, as far as I'm aware, they're even making feature films like Lollywood films, they're making TV dramas. The Pakistani army is in control of everything in Pakistan. Absolutely everything. Democracy is just something that they talk about, but in practice it doesn't exist in Pakistan. Pakistan is ruled and governed by the army. They are in complete control of everything. 

One thing I do want to ask you. Have things worsened under Imran Khan and is Imran Khan aware of everything? And what has he said he will or won't do or has he just ignored it entirely? I remember you just said somebody did put the question to him and then he, and he ignored it.

Have you asked him in any other direct way or has that opportunity not been there?

Saba: Things are changing for worse in Pakistan. 

This current government is very repressive towards women and it's not a true democracy. It's not authentic democracy. All the opposition leaders are being arrested and it's just hard for anyone to speak their minds. 

In this government, anyone irrespective of whatever profession they come from, if they're speaking their minds, they're put behind the bars. Pakistan has never been this dark and this repressive, even in the dictator's time I have seen it's not that dark, although I'm not a person that will ever promote dictatorship, I'm always for democracy, but in this democratic government, the civic spaces are shrinking. Human rights voices are seen as the voice of treason. The witch hunting of the political opponent in this government, in the name of anti- corruption. And selected members of the parliament are sent into prison just for highlighting human rights abuses. And the state is at this point, extremely, extremely afraid of brave women like Gulalai.

And this country is definitely going down the steep at a very high speed. The people who are paying the cost are its citizens. You know, they're not the powerful, so the common people and the citizens are suffering in this government. The current government has pushed back Pakistan hundreds of years. It’s going to take us a very long time, a very long time to come back to where we were. 

 This is very pro militant government as well in a province which gave millions of funds from the education part towards the what is called the university of jihad.  

This political party, this government is really depressive towards human rights in general.

We have been engaging through our friends, through our networks. There have been a lot of international advocacy being done. The president of United States Institute of Peace (USIP) asked the question directly from the prime minister and Gulalai has worked with the United States Institute of Peace. The organisation has worked with the USIP for a number of years, I have spoken on this stage and representing the young people. And I have represented the work of Aware Girls and our work in USIP many, many times. 

In fact, when the United Nation Security Council resolution 2250 on youth peace in security was being launched in Washington DC, I was representing all the young people from the world and telling how important it is for the organisation and the community in DC to own this resolution and work on it. 

So USIP has played, definitely a very positive role in terms of putting forward the case of Gulalai directly to the Prime Minister, Imran Khan, and his response, while USIP president actually referred to the New York times article, the response of Imran Khan was that it's a one sided story. And he said, oh, now I sound like Trump.  I'm glad that he realised this thing because both of these men are very conservative and very oppressive towards women. And they both are afraid of brave women. 

This is something that is common and this is something he did, this is definitely embarrassing Pakistan on international stage, he has made a fool of himself as well, saying to international community that this is a one sided story, although the article clearly mentioned that they have asked the authorities and they refuse to give any comment. 

But overall, I think that with the help of like international friends and networks, there are networks and friends that are supporting Gulalai, they're doing a lot international advocacy.

There are so many names that it would be hard for me to mention, but there are like a number of people in organisation actively working, doing international advocacy and engaging the government, engaging the office of the prime minister, engaging the foreign minister of the human rights, the Human Rights Commission and Pakistan has been engaging them. People have taken up the case in the parliamentary human rights committee in Pakistan. So it's from everywhere. 

But the challenge is that the state, the military is in control of everything. Their objective is to arrest her and put her in prison either for lifetime or to torture her, to put her in a torture cell for life. And when they're unable to do that, they are harassing our parents by having a false case of terrorism against them. 

 My father is a human rights activist and he was even accused of blasphemy, a year before 9/11 because he was also very critical of the pro war policies. And he was very critical of the militant groups and, you know, the state involvement in terrorism before 9/11 and he was accused of blasphemy just because he was, a person who was not supporting the militant groups. 

He is resisting, he has been into prison he has been sent to jail and I grew up with seeing my father going to jail on these cases and, and in other cases. 

But our mother who is a housewife, she has nothing to do with how my father or my sister is being politically involved or what speeches they are doing. She is supporting them as a mother. She supported my sister and she's always there for my sister. You know, when my sister was enforcedly disappeared for these 40 hours, it was my mother and younger sister who took the lead and, you know, they were going from one police station to another and one government office to another to find out about my sister.

But she has been dragged into this matter only because she's mother of Gulalai. Only being a parent of a human rights activist is a crime now in Pakistan. 

Sadia:  It’s disgusting, you were very lucky to have had a dad who was a human rights activist, although I realise it must have been really, really hard watching him go in and out of prison for his work.

Also, it's created this really strong foundation that led to you guys and a supportive mother to you, both of you sisters being just these amazing, amazing inspirational women. I mean, doing the work that you do in Pakistan, your counterparts in the Anglo sphere, in like English speaking countries or European countries, they do not know even an ounce of what it is to do the work that you do and the backlash that you endure for doing the exact same work in one of our countries here in the UK or in European country, they wouldn't even have an ounce of an understanding of how hard it is for you guys,  they would never be thrown into prison for doing the work that you do here.

But something that you mentioned, I watched the meeting between Trump and Imran Khan and it was like watching two narcissists, wanking over each other in the mirror. It was fucking disgusting. And actually, I would like to say that I think Imran Khan is probably worse than Trump in the sense that he has this,

I mean, people think Imran Khan, the sexy cricket player, who's so beautiful. He's going to be so lovely. He's always been so progressive and so wonderful. If you just look at the pictures of his wife and how he himself has changed over the years. There was like an iconic picture that came out of his three marriages and how gradually his wives just disappeared in the picture and how angry he looked within each photo. You can see that he's grown into a thoroughly unpleasant man, and he's going to be a thoroughly unpleasant politician. But I say he's worse than Trump because actually, as disgusting as Trump is, you know who he is. Imran Khan presents himself as some kind of liberal who wants to do good for Pakistan. And he is a monster. 

Everything that you are saying, things have gotten worse. Clearly under Imran Khan. I was aware that quite a lot of not for profit human rights agencies, women's services and children services have been asked to leave Pakistan in the last few months as well since Imran Khan was elected.

He's no progressive. He just has this veneer of being a progressive man but actually he's much, much worse than Trump because he puts on this persona of being quite a progressive and he's hiding some sinister, sinister actions and motives behind that. He doesn't want people to know how dangerous he really is.

Saba: Yes, I agree this government is really getting worse for Pakistan, especially for women's rights and for women's rights movement. 

Generally, in Pakistan, in this administration in Pakistan, the number of women in local councils and the decision making bodies have starkly been decreased.

A number of meetings are happening and they are talking about they're having these decisions and when you see the pictures, the majority of these government meetings, there is literally no women at the table in these meetings. How come? this is 2019.

How can there can be zero-woman representation in the majority of these meetings and decision making processes in Pakistan? 

This is definitely threatening. And you know, this is definitely not good for the development. As I mentioned, it is not good for generally for women's rights and human rights in Pakistan because these men are taking these decisions that are more patriarchal decisions within the parliament. And these men want to sustain their status quo. this is one thing that they want is to have more like control over woman generally and within politics as well.

But also what has happened with this government is that educational policy has also been really greatly affected in a negative way.

In our educational system, this government has re reintroduced this violent Jihadi context within the educational curriculum. I myself grew up studying, this jihad and this violent jihadi in the Islamic studies book. 

But what happened was that the previous government worked really hard to remove this context that promote this violent jihadist and that they promote violence and killing of the people. And as soon as this government came in into power, they reintroduced all that into the education system. And this is overall worrisome to see that this government is doing this crackdown in Pakistan, pushing it back through very systematically, through their policies, whether it's the policies of the decision making bodies, making them even more worse, making the educational policies worse, making the economy so bad. The economy in Pakistan is really worse these days.

At the policy level as well, it's going really back. It's really getting worse. And also the crackdown, whether it's on media, whether it's on judiciary or whether it's on parliamentarians, whether it's on progressive people, you know, everybody is affected even, you know, the judiciary, even there are cases against this one judge who actually had a case, there was few, some time ago there was this religious cleric who almost occupied the capital and the Pakistani military then gave those people money as their travel reimbursement, , although they were violent, although these people were inspired the killer of the former governor of Punjab. And still the military handed over money to them as incentives. And what happened that this judge was having this case and he was not in favour of this cleric. He was not in favour of what was happening. And there are now cases against him as well.

So, whether it's media, whether it's the judiciary, whether it's parliamentarian, whether it's human right activists, whether it's say, professors, no one is being spared by this government.  

Sadia: Do you have anything else to add? Is there anything else that you want people to know?

Saba: Uh, why? Yeah, I think I'm good. I just want you to know one thing that, my family have paid a huge price for the activism and we will still continue. I just want to mention that we will still continue fighting and resisting and we will still work. We will still continue our work for human rights.

I'll make sure that even if there is crackdown against my family. They cannot speak at this moment because either they are being forced into hiding or because my father may not do his work more openly. But, with the support of my family, we will continue working for human rights, it won't stop us from doing our work and raising our voices. 

 We don't have the opportunity to live together as a family. We had to relocate our younger sister who is a lookalike of our sister Gulalai and she was threatened to be abducted and to be tortured.

We are paying a huge price, still it won't deter us from what we have been doing, and it won't deter us from continuing to raise the voices for human rights and for women's rights, especially for those women who cannot speak up for themselves. 

Sadia: That's so brave for you guys to carry on doing that.

We can't thank you enough, really, for those women and girls that don't have anybody else, they're, I'm sure they're going to be so, so grateful, but I mean, the rest of us can't thank you enough. Is there anything that you would like to ask our listeners for anything that you would, any requests, anything that they can do to get involved?

Anything that they can do to, to help? Is there anything else that you'd like to say to our listeners? 

Saba: I would say, please continue to raise voice for this case, in whatever context you have, whether it's a media or whether it's, through letters, through statements. posting about this case on Twitter, on social media, just do whatever you can do in your power. Whether it's support through messages or whether it's support by posting about it on social media or whether contacting the offices and the consulates in your countries or the foreign offices in your country, like, whatever you can do, please do that. 

And if anybody needs any information I believe they can contact you. I'm more than happy to provide facts. I'm more than happy to provide any other material that they need. 

My Twitter handle is: @Sabaismail