#65

Sadya from FiLiA meets Meera Khanna from the Guild for Service in India.

Sadya: Hello everybody, thank you so much for joining us once again. I'm joined today by Meera Khanna. Meera, could you tell us a little bit about yourself please? 

Meera: I'm a writer by profession and a gender rights activist by inclination. But I think that's nothing unusual because you touch a woman and a gender rights activist comes out of her.

Women face so many different vulnerabilities. It is multi-layered and multi-sectoral. So I think it's a natural tendency for us to question many of the things that we are asked or told to do.

 I spent the last 20 years volunteering with an organisation with an NGO called the Guild for Service, which was started by Dr Mohini Giri, who was the Chair of the National Commission for Women in India.

We have an institution called the National Commission for Women, which looks into all the issues which are related to a gender just society. 

So during the course of my time with the Guild have been able to travel the length and breadth of this big country.

Today the Guild runs three shelter homes. We run five capacity building centres, three family counselling centres and three schools for underprivileged children and the Guild combines both grassroots as well as advocacy work and the Guild is also in consultative status with the ECOSOC of the United Nations.

Sadya:  I'm actually intrigued. What pulled you into this area of work. I was intrigued by what you said, and I think it's very true, but what led you to become involved in this area of work?

Meera: I began my career actually in advertising, I'm intrigued at my own self that from this glamorous, yet very hardworking profession of advertising, I walked into social activism.

It so happened that when my daughter was born, about 25 years back, I gave up advertising because in advertising there is only a time for you to go to work. There is no time when you'll come back from work. And I thought, if I have taken the pain of bearing this child, why give the pleasure of rearing her to somebody else? So the first five years after I left my profession, I just enjoyed motherhood and believe me, that was a fantastic decision that I made. Something which I've never regretted because I opened up a whole new vista of thinking in my mind. 

And after five years I started writing because my career in advertising actually started as a copywriter. So I started writing for newspapers and magazines, features and articles. And I think there was a natural bent of my mind to write on gender-based issues, questioning certain societal and cultural pressures on women. it seemed to me certainly unfair.

And because I was writing on gender rights and gender-based issues, it became a logical extension to join the women's movement. And that is how I started volunteering over with the Guild for Service.

Sadya: And it sounds like you guys are doing some fantastic work in India. Do you think that you have changed attitudes over the last 10, 20 years?

Do you think attitudes have changed around the issues of domestic abuse, sexual violence, women in empowerment? Do you really feel like that's changing in India? 

Meera: The Guild for Service is 45 years old, actually. And I will answer your question with a both a yes and a no. 

Yes, in certain places, in certain issues, it has definitely changed. For example, five decades back, widows in our country were socially marginalised and culturally discriminated and economically deprived. I mean, not all, a majority. Widows had a dress code, a behaviour code. They wore white, they could not move around, and there were certain kinds of food that they could not eat.

Nothing of this is written anywhere. It was just a cultural tradition, something what is called customary tradition. But over the years, this has changed completely. They don't necessarily wear white, and there is really no dress code in major parts of this country.

When I talk about this country, you must remember this is a country of 1.30 billion populations. So I cannot make any kind of generalisation which is true for every corner of this country. So major parts of this country, this attitude towards widowhood has changed completely, both socially, culturally, and also from the legal point of view. 

Earlier on women could not inherit property. Over the year’s post-independence, India changed the succession act. Women could inherit some property. 

In 2005 there was a review of the Inheritance Act, and now women, daughters can inherit ancestral property at the same level as a son. So to that extent, things have changed.

The enrolment rate of girls in schools is very high. And the dropout rate is dropping continuously. I mean, earlier on when girls would drop out after they reached the age of puberty. Now you don't see that kind of a drop. There is dropout in some states and practically no dropout in many other states.

Similarly, earlier on women would only go for what we call the soft streams, humanities, arts. Now you have women in technological fields, taking up science. They're going in for aeronautical engineering, automobile engineering. So there is a lot of change that we see over the years.

The most important point that I can make out is that women have started questioning certain traditions or certain customs, and also many women are able to assert themselves and change customs for example, this entire question of dowry. Dowry was a kind of a bride price. Now there are girls who are actually standing up and saying that, no, if the groom wants a bride price, I don't want to marry. 

Earlier on, the entire expense of a wedding was taken by the girls' side. Now, increasingly, you are finding people who are splitting the expenses between the both the bride and the groom's family.

But the change is slow. Fortunately, every successive government, that we have had, has always worked for women's empowerment, which is why there has been a change in the laws, particularly inheritance laws. We have a law on sexual harassment at workplaces. We have a criminal code, which is called the Section 4 90 80, which deals with the death of a woman in marriage. So it is a non jailable offense, so it is actually the state versus the person. 

The laws have changed. There are institutional strengths, like the National Commission for Women. 

But having said all this, this is also a society in transition because for so many centuries, men in this country have been brought up thinking that they're superior.

So suddenly you have women who are educated, who are capable of standing up for themselves, who are voicing their opinions. So there is a dichotomy between what they were taught and what is the reality. I understand not everybody can take that kind of dichotomy.

Sadya: Men often think that this is an assault on their manhood, that women are now becoming empowered because this happens both in India and Pakistan actually. So I've spoken to some of your I guess colleagues or counterparts in Pakistan that are also part of the Every Woman treaty. And for me personally, like my family is Pakistani, I'm born and raised in the UK. I've realised that even though we have domestic abuse and sexual violence laws in the UK, changing people's ideas and ideals took a very long time. And the change that we see in India gives me a lot of hope for Pakistan. But, I think the fights are a lot harder for Pakistan.

What do you think about that? 

Meera: Even though we share cultural roots, both India and Pakistan, the cultural roots have been the same. And we share a common history of colonialism, but the trajectory of growth of the two countries has been separate, not only the trajectory of growth, also the trajectory of the political establishment has been a separate.

I wouldn't be wrong in saying that for women's rights to be considered acknowledged and nurtured, it is important for a democratic climate. Because it's only in a democracy, you are accepting the rights. You are actually accepting that everyone has an entitlement and a right to what the country can offer. So from that point of view, I think the change in India has evolved because you are actually recognising rights. 

But I want to go back to your earlier point about men feeling that it is an assault on manhood but, I think that is natural because many of the of them have been brought up thinking that their God's gift to mankind.

Look at, look at a man brought up in an absolutely patriarchal framework where he did not even have to pick up his plate after he had had his meal and then suddenly goes to work and he finds that his boss is a woman. 

Sadya: Exactly. It's the most delicious thing to see isn’t it.

Meera: Yeah, it is. I love this drama, but at the same time, I also understand the dilemma that this guy is going through which also reflects in a lot of violence that is happening in the private and the public spaces. 

In India the violence against women, both in public and private spaces is a cause of major concern to the women's movement. In fact, it's one of the points that we push every government on.

 And in fact, even in the last election, many of the manifestos of the political parties did touch upon this issue but having said that, violence is not part of the cultural makeup, but violence has become part of the psyche to a great extent.

You can have laws, but laws are preventive laws. Laws can be protective. The enforcement agencies are there, but the enforcement agencies are reactive. Ultimately, what reduces violence against women is three things, changing mind-sets, involving more and more men into this entire question of women's empowerment, because men need to be told that a when a woman is empowered, she's not taking over his position they're only sharing that position.

And it is important for any community, any nation, any family, for there to be a gender balance because if you're talking about a democratic climate in the home or in the community or in the nation, how can that be when half of the nation is being suppressed or being treated as supplementary agents?

And the third thing, which I think is most important is financial independence because the entire dynamics of violence is based on the premise of power.  And power almost always translates into economic power.  So when that economic power is not solely monopolised by a man, then the degree of violence changes.

Having said that, let me also say that surveys do show that when a woman becomes economically independent, the violence actually increases. in the first one or two years, after a woman becomes economically independent, violence actually increases. There is a need for the other people of the family to actually accept a woman in a new role.

Sadya: Yeah. And it's very true. This makes me think of when abusive relationship when a woman is about to leave, she is at most risk of being murdered at that point. so it kind of makes me think of that same sort of that same sort of situation because a woman's economic independence is very threatening to the family or the spouse or whoever that abuser is because they have less control.

The more financially independent a woman is, the more likely, the more power she has to be able to go, actually, I don't need to take this and I can survive completely independent of you and I can leave. And that is absolutely what any perpetrator would worry about, that now this woman has the capacity to think, provide and do everything for herself so their position is at risk in a way as their abuser or controller or, or provider or guardian, et cetera. 

Meera: Economic independent is a double edged weapon in this case because at least, the woman has an avenue to escape.

Many women in our country may be trapped into an abusive marriage because there is no economic viability for them to move away from that relationship.  what will I do and who will feed me? And her natal family may not be in a position to support her.  Even if they're financially able to support her, they may not be culturally attuned to a changing relationship between a man and a woman. 

So, while economic independence does increase the possibility of violence, it also at least keeps the woman safe. 

Sadya: Yeah. And I think it's important to catch families in our countries that have this kind of mind-set around, you know, women as property and women as wives there's such a desperation to get women married off and only then is she a complete woman.

It's really important to catch families when those girls are younger because the older a girl gets, there's a sense of anxiety in families and communities that doesn't any longer see their daughters as daughters anymore. It just views them as somebody who is at risk of being raped or losing her virginity because she consensually gets into a sexual interaction or losing her virginity through some kind of assault and that that governs their every decision. I don't think they're able to interact with the idea of female empowerment in the same way, particularly if they have those very, very outdated views of a woman is only complete when she's married or that she's only safe when she's married.

Meera: Two points come out of this. You see, patriarchy does equal amount of harm to a man as it does to a woman., because within framework of patriarchy, the man is always hunter. The predator. The sexual predator. And the woman is the victim. So it does as much harm to the man as it does to the woman. Because the entire question of a social balance is the gender balance. 

And the other point that comes out is that increasingly one of the changes that I'm seeing in many parts of India is that increasingly girls are getting married at a later age and particularly in the metropolitans and the A-grade towns.

When I say metropolitans, Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Chennai Bangalore. And A-Grade towns like Hyderabad and Jaipur, So I'm increasingly seeing women who are marrying later in lives. Where earlier in 1947 you would see girls married at the age of 16 and 17. My mother got married when she was 17. You saw women getting married at the age of 16 and 17. Now you are finding girls getting married at the age of 26, and those who are into professions like say being a doctor or a lawyer, or a chartered accountant or an engineer, they're getting married post 30. 

Which is brilliant because by the time you're 26 or 27, you're making an informed choice on your partner. And not only are you making an informed choice on your partner, you're also ready to take the consequences of the decision that you've taken, not being, being pushed into marriage.

That is a change that I am seeing over the last four decades or so. I mean, I would say last three decades. 

Sadya: So, I have one quick last question before we move on to wrapping up. You said that in, in the Metropolitan, the cities that people are moving towards, not marrying as young. Do you see that in the rural areas, in the poorer areas as well? Has that shift started happening or is child marriage and young marriage still a major issue? 

Meera: I'm not seeing such an evident shift in rural areas. It may happen in pockets where girls are moving away from rural areas and coming to the cities to study and take up jobs.

Over the last two decades there is a huge lower middle class coming up in the metropolitans. So there are girls moving into the metro areas, but you're right that evidence shift is not seen. And yes, we do have this issue about child marriage particularly in the state of Rajasthan where on a particular day child marriages are conducted.

But it is criminalised. Child marriage is a criminal offense.  

Sadya: Thank goodness that was really recent, wasn't it? It was a fantastic move. 

Meera: No, no. We've always had this Child Marriage Act even before, but the enforcement has become more and more tough in the sense now it's not just the two families which are charged under this offense, but also people who attend that marriage.

There is a great public campaign against it. The public campaign is not against child marriage as such, but it is to bring the, bring the girl child home to prevent foeticide but also educate the girl child and there are individual States, for example, which actually gives an incentive if the girl has passed her matriculation and then gets married, which means that she would be at least 17. And if she gets married after the higher secondary, then there's another incentive. So there are incentives being given, particularly in rural areas to prevent this kind of child marriage. But having said that, child marriage is restricted to certain pockets in our country. It's not a universal phenomenon. 

Sadya: Before I let you go, what can our listeners do to get involved to get more information if they want to help or support in any way? Is there anything that you want to say or ask our listeners? 

Meera: I think it is important for listeners to understand that any tradition, any custom, any law, any, social norm must go through a touchstone of human rights. If any tradition violates the dignity of a woman or a man, then that cannot be right. So that touchstone of a human right must be applied to every norm or custom or tradition because I don't think when the world was made, it was ever meant to be that one entire section of the world, half of the world would be only supplementary agents to be suppressed and oppressed while the others would be the suppressors and the oppressors. And even this entire question of protecting a woman actually is a way of enforcing her supplementary status because whom do you protect?

You protect someone who's either physically or mentally or emotionally weaker. So it is not a question of protection, it is a question of rights. Being able to give women the right to be able to stand up, to explore their potential, their talents, and to realise their dreams and to live life on equal terms.