#60

Heather Brunskell-Evans from FiLiA in conversation with Manu Schon

Heather: The is Heather and I’m interviewing Manuela for FiLiA who is on the panel for the Nordic Model and prostitution.

Manu: I actually don't know the name of the panel; it's about the sex trade. 

Heather: You're a sociologist, a political activist and also a music journalist.  I gather you've been politically active about the sex trade or against the sex trade in Germany since 2013, is there something that happened in 2013 that drew your attention to it or has there been a build up to your political activism against the sex trade? 

Manu: Yeah, actually there were a couple of reasons to get involved into that fight. At one hand, I've been a political activist many years before against capitalism, against racism. And I also had founded a counselling service for people that were eligible for social benefits and were not getting them by the state, like helping them to get their rights.

And with this counselling service I get the attention of the exploitation of ethnic minorities and the German sex trade because there was a family from the Roma ethnicity from Romania. And they somehow, because they were my neighbours, they trusted me enough to come into this counselling service, which is not very usual because of the discrimination they are experiencing, they don't trust so many people from the main population of the countries they live in. 

So because I helped this family, they brought in a lot of other families from ethnicity and some of the women didn't tell me they were involved in prostitution, but I found out through people talking about them, that the women were prostituted to just make a living because the German state didn't give them any social benefits and they also didn't find any work. 

So what I did was actually offer them sort of an exit help without them even telling me they were in prostitution because I went to the court with them and fought for their right for social benefits, which they in the end got.

So then I heard people talking again that they are not involved in prostitution anymore because men were talking about how little money they had to pay for getting sex from the women.

So that was the start of everything actually, that I felt like I want to be in solidarity with marginalised people that are exploited in Germany under capitalist conditions. 

Then I checked about the prostitution market in my city and I was really shocked because I didn't know it was so big because everything in my city in Wiesbaden which is the capital of the state of Hesse is very hidden. 

We have two little brothels that are visibly open but the rest is in prostitution apartments.

So, I found out that there was about 1000 prostituted women in the city with 280,000 inhabitants, which I found was really much. So I got interested in like, why didn't I see it? Why didn't I know that? Why was I surprised? Why was I so ignorant and what's going on there? So I started to read in the Johns forums and I was totally shocked what I got to read there.

And then about the same time there was an appeal from the feminist magazine, Emma, which was in favour of the Nordic Model. And so that was coincidentally at the same time. So there was a public debate on prostitution and there was also a solution for what I found was a problem. So I thought it would be like we had a very strong feminist group in this government from the left party. So we thought it would be the right thing to address this issue. And at the same time, we were really surprised that our leftist comrades were totally against our activism and the pushback we got for that activism.  

Heather:  So what you're saying is two things that you didn't know before. One, the existence, the prevalence of prostitution in your own city and it was possible to have not seen that, to have lived there and somehow to have not known about it. And the other thing that you probably didn't realise at that time was the acceptance and almost promotion of prostitution of women and that it surprised you that it was possible.

Manu: Yeah, when I got more into the issue, I found that it was not surprising the reactions we got within our party, but at that time I was really surprised and shocked. Even people, male comrades that said, I'm a John and that's totally okay. I'm a nice John and there's nothing about it. So that was really shocking. 

Heather:  Is there a strong movement in Germany, a feminist movement in Germany, which would be against the sex trade or is there a strong feminist movement, which would be pro the sex trade? Do you have the same kind of conflict in Germany that we do have in the UK, where we could describe liberal feminists as being pro prostitution because they would describe it as sex work and it's work like any other and then a more radical feminist analysis, which would see it as women being prostituted? Are there the same dynamics in Germany, do you think? 

Manu: I think it's very similar, but at the same time it's also different because um, back 2013 there was actually the liberal feminists that portrayed prostitution as sex work and work like any other and using the same arguments as everywhere else in the world. Like it's the stigma that's the problem. And women in prostitution need to be empowered and then everything will be all right. But prostitution itself is not a problem. 

But there hasn't been, in 2013, a radical feminist movement and the fight against the sex trade was actually the origin of a new radical feminist movement in Germany because the situation today, like almost seven years later is much different than it was back then. And at the same time that we created a movement against prostitution and the sex trade, we also created a movement that is radical feminist and also tackles other issues and discusses other issues in feminism. 

Heather: So quite a lot has happened in the past few years on the back of a resistance to the sex trade.

Before we go into that, I'd really like to talk about something that you had written on your blog, it was really interesting. You said - Germany is a country where prostitution is normalised. I'd like you to explain that to us but also you said – it’s also partially part of the national identity and has been for some years -   I think that couldn't be applied to the UK quite in the same way. Could you describe what you mean by that? 

Manu: In the common perception, prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 with the prostitution law. But that is a total misconception because actually prostitution has been always legal as long as we can think in Germany, the first red light district with the brothels in the Ruhr area, in Hamburg, in different cities, they evolved in 1850 about, so, brothel keeping and pimping and renting out rooms to prostituted women is something, everyone who is living now in Germany doesn't know in any other way. I mean, like we have grown up with it being totally normal. It doesn't matter if you are 90 years old, or 15 years old, for all, it's the same and at the same time it is also that we have cities like Hamburg, St Pauli and the Reeperbahn where prostitution is openly celebrated where there is like guidances through the area. And also in other cities we have brothel tours. So people that are not in a sex trade can have a glimpse of what is happening there. And like on TV we have TV shows that portray prostitution as something really great. 

So it's all around us and we have been so used to it that we don't even realise it. Like you have to be sensitive about the issue and you have to like, have your eyes open first, then you will realise that it's just everywhere.

That also applies to like advertisements that, for example, there is beer brands that call beer like red light or there's a lot of references to the sex trade in products. 

So, I think if you talk about Hamburg St Pauli to people, the first thing that comes to their mind is the prostitution.

And I think it's unthinkable for people how this area would look like if there would be no prostitution. So that's why I'm thinking that it's part of our identity. 

Heather: I'm trying to work out how, at the one hand you're saying it's so prevalent and part of your identity in Germany, but somehow in 2013 didn't quite understand how it coexisted in your own small city with just everyday life.

I wonder also whether things have changed because just to let the listeners know that I stayed with you about three years ago and you kindly showed me various cities and the prostitution areas and I was shocked to find that advertisements, on buses even, would advertise the area to go to or a particular brothel. So it was so normalised, it was shocking to me. And also shocking the way that brothels could be almost like tower blocks, literally just openly dedicated to prostitution and with adverts outside so everybody knew what was going on inside and people would just go in openly. 

I think I saw an advert on a Saturday you could have a free lunch and a pint of beer thrown in with the payment of using one woman as a sort of cheap deal on a Saturday, something like that. 

Manu: Yeah.

Heather:  And even as somebody who was aware of the existence of prostitution and the exploitation within it, even, I was totally astounded by the level of normalisation of prostitution in Germany.

You were telling me at that point that a lot of the women who are prostituted are not German women. They're women from Eastern Europe largely. Is that still the case? 

Manu: Yeah, we can say that about 90% of the women in the German sex trade are from Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary.

Mostly it's ethnic minorities. Um, like Roma’s from these three countries, but also from Bulgaria, the Turkish speaking Bulgarians. And part of the trade is Nigerian women. And transsexual, prostitution, it's mainly trans women from Latin America or Asia. There is a small percentage of German women and the sex trade in Germany.

Heather: So is that seen as a problematic to German people? The exploitation of all ethnic minority people? Does it ever get talked about? It's a small number of German women.

Manu: I have to laugh a bit, but that's more cynical because there is this big party and they're trying for a district every year and it's a red light district right at the train station and it's also a place when you walk through it. I think we have been there, maybe, together as well, it smells like urine. You see people consuming crystal meth that are really like, really destroyed people, or they shoot heroin on the street in front of you or something. And it's, it's really hard to see that and you can't do anything about it.

And at the same time, the city celebrates a big party in the red light district, with people drinking champagne and stuff. And they had this paper they wanted to give out where they actually had this proud way of telling, we have the most beautiful women from Romania and Bulgaria here in our red light area. The city administration wanted to give that out so there was a protest about it. So they never gave it out. 

I don't know what happened to these papers, but, because of the protest, they didn't give it to the people. But that's what you get here. I mean, that's more pride of like having the beautiful Eastern European women and not a problemisation of the situation.

And at the same time, it's really interesting and shocking to see that those who you think have been your allies all the years before that fight racism, that fight capitalism now justifies one exploitation with another and say like, yeah, we all don't like to go to work. And that's the thing about work. Why do prostituted women have to like their work? We all don't. 

So, and that's really weird to see that all the analytical skills they usually have don't apply to the sex trade.

Heather:  Can you explain to the listeners, that I think you advocate the Nordic Model rather than the model of legalising prostitution and what the Nordic Model is for those people who are not familiar with it. 

Manu: In Germany, we have legalisation for so many years and also we have since 2002, the legalisation of pimping, although even, like I said, that was legal before already, but before 2002 pimps only could rent out rooms. Like if they did anything that made them get involved more into prostitution, that would be pimping, that would be criminalised. And in 2002, everything got actually legalised. So we always say that in 2002, prostitution wasn't legalised, but pimping was.

So, at the same time, prostitution in Germany has always been regulated. Like there's always been a lot of rules like where prostitution is allowed to take place.  There were times when prostituted women had to do mandatory health checks and show them to their authorities, now there was a new law invented two years ago, which where we can talk about later which also puts a lot of regulation on the women.

And it's always been like that, that they want legal prostitution. But I think that with a lot of rules coming with it, with the legislation that they can make prostitution okay. Or we always say, put a fair trade stamp on it or something. 

We don't think that this is working. Like for example, they say legal prostitution is necessary to make it safe for the women in prostitution.

In 2013 we had collected like 23 murders in German prostitution since 2000. And now we have documented more than 80 murders in German prostitution and a lot more murder attempts. So we definitely cannot say that legalisation makes it safe for women in prostitution.

So if you see which other possibilities there are, there's a prohibition like in many states of the the United States or in many countries of Eastern Europe.  that means that everyone involved in prostitution gets criminalised. That definitely is something that we don't want either. We don't see that as an alternative to legalisation.

But the Nordic Model is something that totally makes sense if you know what prostitution is, if you say that, prostitution is not a choice, but women in prostitution get involved in prostitution because of a lack of choice, like economic reasons because they are poor or because they are re-enacting sexual abuse they have experienced as a child, they're traumatised and they think prostitution gives them back the power about their sexuality and stuff, then it doesn't make sense to criminalise women in prostitution. 

And the Nordic Model does decriminalise the women in prostitution on the one hand, but at the other hand says that prostitution is a threat to gender equality in the country. And that the demand of the male Johns is creating the market for prostitution. So that is the reason why the Johns should be criminalised and not the women in prostitution. And at the same time, they don't find it acceptable that women profit from prostitution of others so also pimping is criminalised.

And so while criminalising the Johns and ending the demand is one of the most crucial parts of The Nordic Model, there's also just as important that the women in prostitution get a lot of individual health possibilities if they want them, if they want to get out, if they want to work something else, that they get the help they need, which they don't get in Germany. 

Like if they go to a counselling service, they just get told if you don't like prostitution, then why do you still go to the brothel? Because there is no idea about the situation the women are in. Also the Nordic Model does include that there is a lot of prevention. Already young boys are getting told in school that women are not for sale and sexuality should be always something that both parties want. And not one party wants the sex and the other one needs the money. And I think that is the absolute right way to deal with prostitution. 

Heather: So is there a growing movement for the Nordic Model in Germany? Do you think there's been a shift from when you first got involved in 2013 to 2019? 

Manu: Absolutely. 

Heather: Gosh, that's fantastic. And this because of you. You were predominant as a person in the political activist movement against the sex trade and wanting to adopt the Nordic Model. So I'm applauding your intervention, the power of your intervention here.

Do you find that there are other women coming along with you now? Do you feel a sense of solidarity that there's a group that you can be part of that is campaigning against the sex trade? 

Manu:  Absolutely. First of all, I want to say that we were not the first and we not be the last one. I already mentioned the debate the feminist magazine, Emma was starting in 2013.

And although I have some criticism on some positions they have on political issues, I absolutely respect them for having been a voice against prostitution all the centuries before us. Like they have always been, from the 1970s, the ones that have criticised prostitution and the situation in Germany. I think that they started this debate again in 2013. That was really important for our movement to get started. 

When we first were discussing prostitution on social media in 2013, because that's how it all started, I mean, we can be very critical of many things about Facebook, but we have found each other through Facebook. That's absolutely something one needs to consider. 

If newspapers published something on prostitution, it was always the same handful of women arguing against it, and that's how the group of abolitionists in Germany found each other, like it was always the same women that you would meet in this discussions and then you send each other friend requests and then you start organising.

One very important person that was Anita Heidegger in Munchen and still is. She is in Koka, which is a women's centre in Munich that has existed for a long time and she does a conference every December in Munich and like inviting all the great people that have worked on prostitution from all over the world.

And we have learned so much on these conferences. I have to say, even though that I’m working on the issue of prostitutions in so many years, almost every day, and I've looked at it from a sociologist perspective. I have looked at it from a feminist perspective and also looked at it historically. I still learn so much every day. I feel like I still don't know a lot of things about prostitution. 

Every time you think you have got it all. There's something else that you haven't considered and that there's this moment where you think, ah, alright, I've never understood that, or I've never seen it that way. So there's always something you can learn and these conferences were really important to get a sense of what prostitution is about.

Like when I said first the fight against prostitution was for me, if I fight for solidarity with racially discriminated women. I now see prostitution as a fight against prostitution, as a fight for myself. If there's prostitution in the society, it has an effect on all women in the society, and that's something I didn't grasp in 2013.

So, from there on, there were a lot of networks, networks that were founded like the network, Stop Sexkauf (Stop buying sex) which is like a lot of local organisations organising under that name and working together. And also there is some more, not actually a Christian network, but most organisation in that network are Christian and it's called Together against Human Trafficking.

And a lot of the organisations that are organised there are favour of the Nordic Model. And from there it went slowly, really slowly. At first, we really feared for our jobs. We got pushed out of our organisations for our opinion, but at some point it flipped and I don't know what happened that at some point it became actually a normal opinion in the debate.

Like you can say you are against prostitution and nobody would question that or threaten you for it. There's a lot of Facebook pages that have evolved from young women that now are radical feminists and want to start their own pages and spread their own information. 

There's a woman who is making a podcast about the sex trade. Then there is the same woman who is doing like collecting John quotes and putting them on a webpage. And also what has been really important in Germany was the speaking out of survivors of the sex trade. Huschke Mau was one of the first to speak out in Germany and she has founded Network Ella and it consists of women that are still in the sex trade and have exited to sex trade and are in favour of the Nordic Model. 

And there have been a lot of newspaper articles and also a few shows on TV where they appeared. And also there has been a documentary I did on a broadcasting channel, which was really portraying the sex trade as it is and was really critical. 

So we can say that the whole debate has changed so much that even now, some politicians support us, mostly politicians on the local level, not so much on the National Parliament, but actually there is also some members of the National Parliament of the Bundes…. now support the Nordic Model openly.

Some don't do it openly yet, but they signalled to us that they support our view. And even in the left party there has been happening, something. So we have some people, we have started this network in the left party, Left Against Prostitution, which has a lot of supporters by now. And some conferences evolved out of that and some events.

In the last four months, I've spoken two times in front of the left youth organisation that invited me to talk about the Nordic Model and about prostitution. So that wouldn't have been possible in 2013 that's a complete change. And also in the universities that have been really in favour of the sex trade, there is also some movement towards the Nordic Model position. 

I've never worked on a political issue that has succeeded in so many things in so short time.  

Heather: I wonder whether this is because the movement, a radical feminist movement is sort of blossoming and burgeoning at the moment in all sorts of different ways. So the time is ripe, in some sort of way, for people to hear critique of the sex trade. 

Do you think it might be possible that the German laws are actually changed and that they will at some point adopt the Nordic Model? 

Manu: The problem is the German government realised that what they did in 2002 wasn't really helpful because it created a situation where the prostitution market was completely left alone. And so Germany became famous for everything-goes like flat rate offers, like you pay a certain amount of money and you can fuck as many women in prostitution as we want in this prostitution business. Or gang bang parties that are filmed and marketed as a porn movie afterwards. There's so many things like dumping orders for like 30 euros or something. Or even at the street, prostitution. You can buy prostitution for as less as five euros. And I think it became totally clear to them that it cannot go on like that and something has to change.

But the problem was when they were talking about a new law, they never even considered to speak about the Nordic Model. They have totally left it out of the political discussion although the European Parliament has recommended it to all its member countries, they just thought or have the opinion that it doesn't matter to them. They wanted to stick to legalisation and just look how you can regulate it better. 

And I'm very torn about if I do think it's a step in the right direction or if it's not. Because on the one hand, or maybe I should just say what has changed in 2017. Now the prostitution businesses need permission. They have to hand in the contracts of their business to the local authorities and they have to say, this is okay or not. And if it's not okay, they have to close, and a lot of businesses actually closed. 

Also like when we were talking about Wiesbaden, all the prostitution apartments are actually gone by now, almost all of them, like 90% of them.

Also the women now need to register which is really a problem as I think because they cannot stay anonymous. The motion behind that was really a problem that a lot of foreign migrant women in the German sex trade, and no one knew who they were. And so also nobody could realise if someone disappeared.

So they argued that it would be for the women's safety, but on the other hand, they have to pay money to register. They cannot stay anonymous anymore. And also at the same time when they're registered, they get reported to the financial authorities because the German state also takes taxes from the women in prostitution, like 25 euros a day.

And this is really a bad situation. And also they have to get counselling which doesn't include most of the women that are in the German sector don't have health insurance. So they have to do a health counselling but there is no possibility for them to get a doctor looking for whatever they need.

So, most of the women are not really amused about that, that they get told how to take care for their health, but have no opportunity to do so. And also they have to pay for this counselling again. So the State is charging a lot of money from the women that has to be again earned in prostitution. So I think it's totally right to say that the German state is a pimp.  

 On the other hand, what we can see is that the law leads to the local authorities having to deal with the issue so I think it could be a step in the right direction because they see, on one hand it's not really working but they also are confronted with the situation of the women in prostitution.

I can say from my city that there's a lot of people in the local authorities that have learned a lot about prostitution in the last year since they have to deal with it. And also politics cannot just deal with it like it's none of their business like it was before. 

But on the other hand, like I said, that when all the prostitution apartments here disappeared, we have a concentration of new businesses in the so-called tolerance zone where prostitution is allowed.

And if you remember when we have been in Munich in this industrial complex with all the huge buildings that made us feel that it's like fabrics, where women are exploited, that is exactly what is evolving right now here in Wiesbaden. We have an area in the city or in the outskirts of the city where there is now a Monopoly station of the market.

A few players in the business make more money and the others just disappear, like the small businesses or something. 

Heather: I'm going to ask one last question and it's, you said earlier that the issue in prostitution isn't just an issue for those women who are prostituted, but it's an issue for all women, that you came to the realisation that prostitution affects everyone, whether you are in prostitution or not. Now, I wondered whether you could just say a little bit more about that? 

Manu: I think that when Johns go to the brothel and then go back home to their partner's, girlfriend's, wives or also daughters, whatever, they are still the same person. And if you have a view of women that consists of: if you pay enough money, you can have sex, even if they don't want that sex -  not because they walk in the door at home they do not strip that off. I mean, that's still part of what they believe and that absolutely, absolutely has consequences for all the women. 

And also it's often said, especially here in Germany, I'm always shocked that everyone you're talking to is saying: we need prostitution, because if we don't have prostitution, there will be more sexual violence - And I just don't get it.

If I see prostitution as an unwanted sex act that is only agreed to because of a compensation. Then to me that is the definition of sexual violence because it's not wanted sex. 

We also know that from the studies from Melissa Farley and others, if you compare Johns with men who don't buy sex, that there is a difference in their perception of women and that they are also more sexually violent outside of prostitution.

So I also found it interesting that if the Swedish police takes DNA from sex buyers or Johns, they were able to solve a lot of formally unsolved rape cases. And I think you can on only use prostitution as a man if you are a misogynist and that also will play out in every interaction you will have outside of prostitution or out of the prostitution universe, like most of the time.

Like I said, I didn't even know it exists, but it ex it exists right in our neighbourhoods and it also influence pop culture in like we have this hip hop, with rappers that rap about prostitution as if that's the most normal thing. The young kids, they absolutely love these musicians and that totally influences them growing up and thinking it's normal to go into a brothel and use prostitution. 

So that really hit me hard when I realised that, that it's also about me and about everyone else in the society.

Heather: When you said: People use the argument that if you don't have prostitution, then violence will be increased - I thought to myself, gosh, what a terrible view of men and that it's ironic that it's radical feminists who are sometimes accused of having a terrible view of men, and I'm thinking how hopeful we are about men because we are continually shocked at the idea that if men don't have prostitutes, then they'll be sexually wild instead of arguing that men are human beings that are sociable and can behave as ethically as anyone else, that they are quite capable of restraining themselves, as it were. And it's not even a question of restraint. A different version of masculinity that men are not entitled to have sex just because they want it. 

Manu: Yeah. That on the one hand, exactly. And on the other hand, I also find it really difficult to just have one group of women that have to be available for men, so all the other women don't have to deal with this.

Men that cannot control themselves, I mean, that's not my view of solidarity. That's exactly the opposite. Like, do you really think it's okay to have that one group of women that has to deal with it all so we all can have our happy lives, which we don't.

As we know, the prevalence of sexual violence is really high, so how can you even imagine that it has a positive effect on that?

Heather: We've talked for a long time. I think we should draw this to an end now. 

 I'm really looking forward to seeing you at FiLiA Conference and coming to the panel that you're talking on and, and listening to you even more. 

Manu: Yeah, I'm so much looking forward to see you again and meet all the other fabulous activists and all the great speakers at the panels.