Sally Jackson from FiLiA meets: Dr Sasha Rakoff 

Sally I'm really pleased today to be joined by Sasha Rakoff from Not Buying It. We’re really pleased that Not Buying It has been able to come, I think probably every time now to the FiLiA conference, in some way or other, so it's always great to have you on board, but I wondered if perhaps you could go back to basics and just tell us a little bit about how Not Buying It came about and what the aims are.

Sasha: Yeah. So we set up at the beginning of 2016 to challenge sexual exploitation, particularly the porn and sex industry that are normalising things like lap dancing, page three, sexist ads. 

Our biggest success was about a year ago when we spearheaded a legal challenge with loads of other groups and individuals, MPs, former lap dancers too.

We spearheaded a legal challenge against Sheffield City Council for breaching equality law because of its very pro strip industry stance. And we won, I mean, they conceded in court that they had failed dismally to apply equality law. So now that's, that was nine months ago. They were supposed to totally redraft their licensing policy for strip clubs, which has never happened.

So that’s the backstory to what we're about to talk about.

Sally: Right and it's interesting, isn't it? Because you know, the equality law is a good piece of legislation, but it is very much about actually how it's applied. That makes the difference. Or, in this case, it doesn't make a difference.

Sasha: Well, it's also about being able to use it at all, because the only way we can do is either you crowdfund and to pay properly for legal fees, you're talking 50 to a 100,000 pounds. We have to ask some poor unemployed person on benefits to be a legal aid claimant because we cannot as human rights groups, we are not entitled to legal aid. So we cannot use equality law. That's the situation we’re in. 

Sally: Yeah. So those organisations that are representing some of the groups that the equality law may have most impact on, aren't actually able to use it. 

Sasha: We can't use it. So the equality law is almost an active exploitation because it has to rely on somebody being horrifically effected by a situation and is probably on benefits themselves and in crisis themselves. It's ridiculous. Isn't it? 

Sally: It certainly is. And also the impact of having to take that on in that crisis situation is just another trauma for that individual to have to experience.

 So as you mentioned, although that was a really positive win in actual fact it didn't sort of really change much as far as Sheffield was concerned.

So what happened next?

Sasha: Well, nothing was happening next. What has happened very recently is actually undercover investigators have gone into the one strip club there The Spearmint Rhino with an appalling reputation. They went in there and they recorded what was happening and what lap dancers have to do, you know, for 20 pounds in order to make any money whatsoever. 

And they found that the only rule in these strip clubs is you can get as close as you like, just don't touch. And what they found is there was huge amounts of sexual contact with every single dancer, this included them, masturbating each other, masturbating the men, it kind of culminated in basically lesbian sex that you paid 160 pounds for a think.

 So this is basically what women are having to do in a strip club to make any money whatsoever because they have to pay to work in these places. And then they have to give a portion of the takings back to the club. They are often fined these can be fines of 300 pounds. They have to buy expensive stripper clothes, and then they have to pay for getting home in the early hours of the morning cabs and so on. So this is what women are having to do to even make a penny to work in a strip club. 

Sally: And of course, I suppose the argument that they might say is that women are choosing to do that. But from what you're saying, actually, if you were working in a club and you wanted to make some money, basically, that's the only way it's going to happen. Because if other dancers are doing that, it kind of forces everyone into that same sort of scenario as in what's offer in that club.

Sasha: Yeah, absolutely.

And we spoke to many women who've left the industry who say exactly that. We found, maybe not as graphic as was happening in Sheffield but sexual contact and assaults and harassment is actually happening. And we found 50 clubs across the UK, probably about a third of the entire strip industry. And that's with the industry trying to give a very tight lid on it obviously. 

And also in a way it's irrelevant if women want to do that, unfortunately, that's illegal. You can't. So even if women, all these women are really choosing to do this in this big happy families, which is how strict pubs are always portrayed. You can't do it. 

Sally: We’re talking about women that perhaps have started working within the strip club either because genuinely the levels of austerity that women are experiencing at the moment, single parents, students, perhaps who are thinking about how are they going to pay off their student loan. This sort of work is often promoted actually as, as kind of easy money that all you have to do is dance, which you might enjoy doing anyway. And it's, as you say, the kind of like safe family environment and everyone will be looked up. And so this undercover work has really exposed the harsh reality of a real life in these clubs.

Sasha: Yeah. There's so much to say about this. There's been quite a lot of research done by very pro sex industry researchers. And even they have shown that approximately a third of women in strip clubs are students. Obviously they're concerned about student loans, which is at horrific levels. They've also found that approximately a third in America, working in the strip industry are in abusive relationships.

Every single woman we've spoken to, dozens now, who've spoken to us. They've written books about the strip industry. They've talked about how the vast majority, like 80% - 90% of women in it have come from abusive backgrounds of some sort. 

So it's not just about financial exploitation, it’s emotional exploitation. They become very vulnerable financially and emotionally and for them being sold this lie about how you ‘waft around and men chuck thousands of pounds at you’ The idea that you're re-enacting the abuse that you might already have experienced. So nothing, nothing is worth that, especially when you consider that apparently 50% of the student loans never even have to be paid back.

So you've gone through all that yet more emotional abuse for yourself when you maybe didn't even need to. On top of that, as you said, the only way you can make good money is by breaking the rules often to quite an extreme extent. Again, the pro strip club industry academics have found that 70% of lap dancers say that they leave a shift at the end of it they've not actually made any money. So it's not this great industry where you're making lots of money. Everything about it is a lie. 

Sally: It's exploitations upon exploitation. Isn't it? As you say actually it may be a partner that's persuaded somebody to be working in the club in any case.

And then if they're not making that money, there may be ramifications for them when they go home, if the money's not being bought in. 

Sasha: Absolutely. It's that is the ultimate exploitation, the gig economy, and zero hours, austerity. I mean, this is the ultimate expression of what happens every time there's hard times you see an explosion in the sex industry.

Oh so it's a choice, on the other hand we're going into it because they're worried about poverty or they're in poverty. So, you know, they can't have it both ways either It's a wonderful choice or it isn’t. 

Sally: No, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it that if women aren't experienced in poverty, it's not a ‘choice’ in inverted commas that they would wish to make.

What’s really helpful then because of this undercover work is there's some really clear, you would say non refutable evidence that this is what's happening within the clubs. What do we do with that now? What’s the next step?

Sasha: Well, we got a petition. Hopefully you can put a link to it up for sure. It's kind at all levels.

Obviously we want this club shut down, but just as importantly, these women need to be supported financially, emotionally, just gaps in your CV because you know, you can't put lap dancing in your CV it's perfectly okay for men to brag about going to strip clubs. The women can't own up to that.

So absolutely there must be proper support for these women in this club and in every other club. So for people to ask their MPs, to lobby, to get the law changed so that lap dancing is no longer seen as acceptable. It's been banned in Iceland, which is one of the countries with the best records for equality and women's rights on the planet.

In the meantime, the Home Office is issuing guidance to councillors over the fact that you cannot regulate this industry. I mean, in Sheffield they have things like, in all these other clubs, they have these secret spot checks, you know, three or four times a year and they always come up perfectly clean.

On TV is always perfectly clean, nothing dodgy is going on. So obviously this industry is finding all sorts of ways to get around any kind of regulation that councils think they're putting in place. Just general awareness. People need to know what this industry is and how exploitative it is.  

Sally: So for women listening to this, would it be: how do you know if there's a lap dancing or strip club in your area? And then who is it? Would it be your MP, the police, the council who are the best people to speak to about it? 

Sasha: To start off you can very use easily, often find out about strip clubs locally by searching, just Googling it. 

I should have also mentioned of course that this is not being just us by a long shot. It's been years of campaigning in Sheffield for instance, and we're linked up with amazing groups there. Women's Equality Party in Sheffield, Zero Option.

 There have been two court cases against the council on this issue. Zero Option were behind the first one, 1 Billion Rising in Sheffield and Sammy Woodhouse, a feminist icon who blew the lid on the Rotherham the child abuse that she was groomed in. And she worked in this club for years. So yeah, there's lots of local activists around as well, but contact us as a first step. If you're worried about strip clubs and we can try and sort you out hook you up with local people and do something about it.

Sally: Fantastic. And I know the information that you send out is so helpful, it can be quite daunting to think, okay, actually, I'm going to make a complaint or a representation to my Council when you're not quite sure how the licensing works, who you should be talking to or what are the main points to say, but you provide some really great advice about how to put that together.

Sasha: It is daunting, especially when you know, most of the time they don't listen to a word. And actually you probably know more than the councillors do. Even the licensing experts. I mean, half the policies are illegal and we've been telling counsellors this and they just ignore it. These clubs come up for relicensing, every single year so if they've got an illegal policy, every licensing decision made onto it is also unlawful. 

So we tell the councillors this for years and they don't listen. So, you know, the whole thing is an absolute mess and needs a total shake up. 

Sally: It strikes me that there's not enough outrage about this. It's an industry that is making so much money off the backs of some of the most vulnerable women, as you say, going against legislation guidelines and et cetera, as a means to do that. And yet it just carries on and carries on.

 Where's the outrage to stop this?

Sasha: Yeah, I think they've done a great sell of it really just as the porn industry has. The media really hasn't helped because every time there's an article about it or a TV piece or documentary, or the BBC news, you just see these women wafting around poles with clothes on and high heels looking like they’re having a great time. it's just been this soft sell of it. 

Stringfellow, when he died, not a single mention of actually how exploitative it was. He himself went to court three times to make sure lap dancers had no employment rights, yet this gushing press about how he was this Sheffield boy made good. So the truth needs to get out there because it's been a total whitewash and this impression has been sold back as somehow women's empowerment.

Sally: Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? But it's work like what you're doing, and this piece, obviously in Sheffield, but actually the work there can be transferred to other areas and we can use that information to lobby councils in other areas where the strip clubs are working. 

Sasha: Yes, I hope so. And also I should just add it. Isn't just about what's happening in that club. Many clubs, I don't know about Sheffield, but many, many clubs, probably, especially in London, you have pimps either inside or lined up, literally lined up outside to take the men to the nearby brothels. Often the lap dancers also there the drugs in the clubs and outside of them, the drug dealing, even spike customers drink. Spearmint Rhino, the chain in Sheffield is known for doing that. Money laundering and tax evasion. I should imagine. I mean, Spearmint Rhino apparently is operating at a 2-million-pound loss. I don't know what other business model fits that?

So it's all about this whole raft of criminality that these strip clubs are linked to intimately linked to and are feeding. 

Sally: For me as well. There's an issue around just more generally women's safety. I mean, I personally have been making my way home late in the evening and that route has taken me past strip clubs and it's not a nice environment, even if you're not involved in the club itself, but you're just a passer-by as a woman. 

Sasha: That also is a breach of equality law it's restricting our freedom to movement actually, and that can be argued as well, but that's way over the head of councillors.

If anyone out there on benefits, who's furious about this and feel they want to help us take a court case. This is a key thing. Please just drop us a line because we're ready to go. 

Sally: So what, what's the best way to get in contact with this if people want to find out more?

Sasha: There is a website and email address, and perhaps you could put that up. 

Drop us a line. Have a chat. Smash the patriarchy.

Sally: Absolutely. That sounds like a good way to, to go ahead. As always such a delight to speak to you.

Thank you so much for the work you do. And because it was making a difference and if we can help in some way, obviously FiLiA would be delighted.