KT: Thanks ever so much everyone for coming this afternoon. Just a little bit about FiLiA. FiLiA is a woman led volunteer organisation. It considers itself to be part of the women's liberation movement and it runs the largest grassroot feminist conference in Europe. 

FiLiA, the word means daughter. And FiLiA makes the point that we are all daughters in the world and that we want to make the world a better place for our daughters and our sisters and all the women in our lives.

One of the things that FiLiA is very keen on is to support the expression, self-expression and self-organization of women. And to make sure that collectively their voices our voices are heard in the world. And we're very keen to share stories of women who are doing that, which is why we're here today.

So I'm really grateful to all of you for giving up your time to have this discussion with me about the women's group that you've set up at work. And we hope that when women listen to what you've done, that they will be inspired to go away and do something where they are. Yeah, thanks ever so much.

 I guess the best place to start is to, somebody can tell me why you started the group, and I don't know who wants to chip in on that.

C: So 2021 I went to FiLiA, I think it was Portsmouth FiLiA, and the very first session I attended was a woman local to Portsmouth that set up a group in her library where a lot of local women that needed help, I think there were a lot of refugee women, needed help filling out forms. And she was like, opened a room in the library, these women would walk in, she'd help them out with the forms.

And it was like something as simple as that as just helping local women in the community. And it just put a seed in my head thinking, I thought to myself, I could do something similar in my own local area. So I had that as a thought. 

It was still in my head. I went to FiLiA a year later in Cardiff, 2022. And the very first session I went on was on matriarchal societies, which I found fascinating. And I thought to myself at that time, doing something in my local area, after a lot of thought, was probably a bit too ambitious. And I work in a very large workplace and I was starting to feel, I'd say, on the verge at some points of feeling lonely.

And so I thought what would be really good for my benefit, and for the benefit of the women in my workplace, is if I created a women's group for us. 

K: How long has it been running? 

C: So it's been running for, I'd say, coming up for two years. Yeah. And so it was the idea of that we would just get together and discuss stuff that's important to us, discuss things that are difficult, at the same time do kind of, you know, activities that were very, you know, enjoyable. 

K: We're going to hear, hopefully, a bit about some of the things you've been getting up to. There's eight women with you here today, so it's just a small number of the [group]. What sort of numbers do you get to the [group]?

C: We get, on average, it ranges between about 15 and 20 women every time we have a session. There are times, obviously, when people are in meetings or are busy, but that's, that's a general average number.

K:  Great, thanks very much for that explanation of how you got started. So how's it going, anybody? I mean, what, what, do you feel less lonely? Caroline said she, she was, she felt a bit lonely. 

W: Yeah, it's one of the things I've got on my notes, was feeling less lonely. I've worked here for 20 years, and I've never, other than, I'm an ex-smoker, other than when we had the smoking room, I felt like I was part of something.

And since the smoking went and I gave up smoking, and that's 17 years ago, I haven't really felt I have a place. But, the last two years definitely feel, I don't feel lonely. I know the names behind initials now. I know faces, people I would have just smiled at. Not thought that they'd be interested in anything I have to say or I'd be interested in what they have to say. 

Yeah, just bonded. It's been, I don't feel that loneliness anymore. I feel part of something. 

F: And I just wanted to say I'm new to the school. I haven't, I've been here five months. I did not know anyone and I'm kind of like secluded in a certain part of the school. So for me, it's just been really nice to get to know some lovely women and it's nice to just stop, even just say hello, have a quick conversation. So yeah, it's really nice. 

L: I think it's just like self, self-belonging really. You know, I've only been here nearly a couple of years and it's been really good. It's quite nice to straight away come into a group and feel like I've been here forever. So that's quite nice as well. And also be able to talk about things that you probably wouldn't normally talk about.

K:  Yeah, I was going to ask, I mean, has the, what did, when, you know, what the group was set up for and what you expected coming into it, has it evolved in ways that you didn't expect or is it what you thought it was going to be when you first came? 

T: I think for me, I mean, I've worked here nine years. and passed Karen in the corridor and just said hello and that's it really. So for me the opportunity to get to know people has just made such a difference. I'm part of the senior leadership team which in itself brings problems because I find people don't always want to approach you because of who you are and I feel being part of this group, it means that I haven't got that tag, that I'm just one of the women within the school.

And being able to have those discussions and just that bonding has made a huge difference. 

E: I was going to say as well, to your first question, that one thing I've really liked about this group is you tend to find people stick with their own age group in schools and they only really gel with people in their department or people in their age group and, or people in the same level of leadership, and there has, sometimes, there is that ‘us and them’ of leadership and then the rest and I think this group has just eradicated all of that because now I feel really comfortable talking to anyone, not just people in this group, but it's given, it's given me confidence just to actually speak to any woman in this group or not.

But, allowing us all just to come together and, and talk about shared experiences, regardless of the title or your age, it's just, it's been really powerful. 

K: And what, has there been, you know, you talked about the intergenerational impact of it, I mean, what, how has that, any sort of, thoughts about how that sort of happens in real life, I mean, what's the impact of that?

W: I don't see ages when I'm in here now. No. I just see, it's just people, and I thought that early on, I did have a look through the questions, and I don't see ages or anything, I just [see], my friends, people.

C: I've noticed that sometimes we start off and we're kind of quite poles apart. I have noticed the generational differences in certain topics though, and then, I don't know if everyone agrees with me, but as we've discussed that difficult topic, we've come to, like, this middle ground, just kind of organically, and there we are all agreeing with each other by the end of it. It's like, how did that happen? Do you agree with me?

T: But don't you think that's the level of respect that we have, as being part of this group. I think we're really respectful to everybody's opinions. And you can see other people's opinions, and you respect that. And I think that enables us all to come forward, you know, and we all end up in a similar place.

C: I mean, I was going to say that sometimes, and I'll be honest with you, I used to have real difficulty if someone had a completely opposing view to me, like how dare you, how dare you have that view. But I think I'm getting to a point where like, I'm accepting of the view, let's talk about this together. I can see where your view is and this is my view. Doesn't mean I'm actually going to change the view, but I just, we just understand each other and we get to a point where it seems like everyone's happy. 

A: I think that's, that's from, to me it's also a lack of ego. I don't think there's any egos in this group, to that, you know, to the extreme. So I think we, we all respect each other and our own, you know, opinions, et cetera. And it's a really nice, it feels like a really safe space to have conversations and discussions. 

K: So you're saying it's a safe space, but you're not, you're still tackling those thorny questions and those, those, I mean, how does that, I know you talked a little bit about how that works, but I mean, how do you pick the, the topic, is that what you do every time you meet? Do you have a discussion or, and if you have a discussion, what, what, how do you decide what you're going to talk about? 

C: What we do is, at the end of every session, we'll talk about what should we do in the next session. And sometimes someone will come up with an idea for a topic. Sometimes I might send an email and go, ‘These are the list of topics that came out, which one would you like to discuss?’

But, because I'm the one organizing it, I am sometimes aware that we've got a little bit deep and some of the discussions are pretty harsh, in some cases, and pretty serious. Then I, therefore, might mix it up and go, ‘Oh, let's, you know, make boobie pots’. 

K: Make boobie pots, what was that? 

W: Boobie pots are fantastic.

K: What was that? 

W: We had clay. We had glue and paint and we made little pots with boobs on them. Some of us made our own boobs, mine were rather lopsided. 

E: We also had the vision boards. 

W: We have, we've had vision boards. So we've had some really nice craft sessions where we've had discussions in amongst that, but we've been able to do, be crafty. We've had writing sessions. We've had sessions in between, so it's not, it's not heavy chats all the time. And I still think we're working from your original list. But I think back to your original list two years ago, I think we're still on…

(Group: We haven't got through them all/We haven't/No, we haven't/I don't think so). 

K: Not enough time to work, really, is there?

W: But it just means we've got to keep going.

C: And what I have noticed is that sometimes we've got a topic and we just keep on and on and on discussing it. And we're like, we're going to - so the topic that we had last week on can people change sex, that is parked because we are going to come back to that.

(Group: Yeah)

C: Because there's a lot of things that people wanted to say that didn't have time to say. So we'll also come back to things. 

K: So that's, I mean, that's interesting, that the, your willingness as a group to have that discussion with, presumably, people with lots of different opinions. Did people, what was the response to that? People liked the space to have that discussion or? 

E: Yeah, I think people like the space have that discussion, but I do think moving forward, we have to be careful that we don't all just agree for the sake of agreeing because we do have a tendency to just go along with whatever the rest of the group - not in this group - but in society, we have a tendency to just go along with what is easiest and what is most convenient.

And I think this is supposed to be a space where you can actually stick to that opinion. You can learn from other people and you can say, ‘Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that. But I still think this.’ And that's fine, to think something totally different, and we're all very respectful to each other, but, you know, you don't have to take on that other person's view.

W: I think we saw that, didn't we? Last week someone had a bit of a different view and a different perspective of it. And it was really interesting to learn their view and their perspective. And the cultural differences as well played a huge part in some of our discussions. 

K: So how do you make sure that the women in the group feel that they own the group and there isn't like a, you know, for example, a small group of women that make all the decisions or one woman that makes all the decisions.

Do you think people feel they've got ownership of the group? 

C: I think right from the beginning, I was really conscious that I wanted everyone to feel like this was their group and it belonged to them. So all I basically do is organize where it's going to happen and when and send out emails. But in terms of what is discussed, that is decided by the group. So it's fairly democratic. 

E: Definitely. 

C: What else do I do? 

E: You do a lot more than send emails to everyone. 

[You bring amazing cakes.] 

E: Yeah. 

L: Well, you introduce. the group and then start the topic off, but it doesn't always go back to you, does it? It goes around. 

F: It's led by everyone isn't it? 

L: Everyone has their little bit of their say.

T: I mean you think when we go back to when we do an activity, so you've led one, some of the other ladies have led, so whilst you've arranged it. So when you came and did your one, I mean I wasn't here then, but you, but I've spoken to you about it. But you led it, you did everything. So I think that shows. You arranged it, but then other people used their strengths, yeah.

K: So when the, I just want to hear a little bit more about the activities you do. I mean, you've given us some examples, but it would be good to hear about some of the other issues you've discussed, or some of the activities you've done. And also, I'm interested in the women that, you know, presumably somebody led on, did somebody lead on the Boobie Pots? Or the writing, you led on the writing? 

A: I led on the writing. 

K: I mean, how does that play out? How does that feel to bring something that I presume you like doing, that you want to do and to be able to share that with the others? 

A: It's really weird because it's like my second career, so outside of here. I am a writer, I'm a poet and all of that, but I walked in. And I think it was just because it was the first one that I led with this group of, of, lovely people. But I've walked in and I had this imposter syndrome, and I was so nervous. And it was really strange, because it's a, it's something that I'm really passionate about, that I love to share, that I share with the, with, you know, other people outside of here.

But it was, it was, at the end of it, it was a lovely experience. And we came up with other things that came out of it, like keeping journals, and that, how cathartic that is, just to sometimes put one, maybe a rude, but still a word, then on how your day has been. And it's just how that, how that really helps me in situations, and how I think it can help other people.

C: Can I just say that your, the story activity that you did with, where we created a story together. So you actually passed the story on, so we continued that. And then you came up with the idea that we keep a journal. 

A: Yeah. 

C: That idea, for me personally, and I know for a few others, I have, I have gone full out on journals now - reading journal, gratitude journal, women’s journal. We've been shopping for journals. 

E: You've got a journal where you write funny things women have said in it. 

A: Yes, but I can't find that journal. (Laughter)

C: Because there's a lot of, I know the journal's red, as in red in the colour. 

(Group: It should be/It's a warning/There's a warning. There’s a warning side to it) 

So I just want to say that just by that writing workshop where you put that in our head at the end has developed. We talk about reading journal in our book clubs now, don't we? So it's like, it's fed onto all kinds of things. 

T: I mean, I've never journaled in my life and I journal every, I, I, we, I text, we journal, we've been good journal shopping. I journal every single day now. I carry it. It was with me at all times on my desk at work. Take it home on the dining room table, journal every single night. And I've got a reading journal now. And I, and I've bought all the little - 

K: So these journals, how does, I mean, what, you obviously really get a lot of pleasure out of keeping them, but what has it added to your life that was, was missing before?

T:  For me, it's really therapeutic because I was really hesitant to start, but then you said, you have to write like no one's ever going to read it. Just write. So that's what I do. So I mean, I'll be on the phone at work, and someone might be annoying me, and I'll write, because it gets out, I feel, for me, it gets it out of my system.

Or I'll sit at home, and I'll think of something, and I'll… But my gratitude is within that, I don't have a separate one. I'm starting to think maybe I need a separate one, because I've learnt about gratitude from you. About every day, you know, when you wake up, and at the end of the day, so mine's all incorporated into one at the moment, but I love it, absolutely, and I never thought I'd do it, ever, but it's just, and that comes from your…

A: That makes me really happy, because I'm such a lover, it's just mine, 

T: it comes from you, it really has, 

A: it's really, it's really brilliant for people, it's not for everyone, but you don't have to, you don't have to be a writer, it's just It's just getting it out, because it's in there. And if you don't get it out in some way, be it through artwork or writing or going out and, you know, running, flipping a table, I don't know, whatever you want to do, it's just a form of getting the anxiety or the stress or something out of you. And I love the fact that it's free. 

T: And stickers, I mean, the joy I feel when I see stickers.

W: Stickers are amazing. 

T: Seriously, I buy, I spend a fortune on stickers.

W: Stickers and wasabi tape. 

T: Yes, yes, they're all over my book. Oh, they're lovely. They make you feel so good.

W: I have boxes. Boxes of journals from over the years. I've always journaled in one form or another. And I have boxes. Reading journal now, caravan journal, and my women's group journal. 

And my ones. And I, I, I, I like getting them out every now and again and looking back over them. Oh, did I feel like that? Wow, why did I feel like that? 

T: They say that, that you need to read back. 

W: Absolutely.

T: And reflect and look at the journey you've come on. 

W: Absolutely. Yeah, it's brilliant. 

T: That's going to be one of my Summer jobs is to actually go back to the beginning and read a few ones.

K: I mean, either on the journals or on another activity, what, you know, what it was, giving people an idea of what sort of things they could get up to. 

E: I, I really liked the vision board session. So that's where we all brought in like clippings of magazines and just things that we had to bring something that we thought was important, to represent how we feel or the women's group. So someone brought along lots of quotes of like being a strong, independent woman. Some people just brought along like fashion magazines and we took things out of there. And I think that was really that was really helpful in working out what is actually important to you, because what we all put on there was presumably what came to our minds the first time we did it.

Although every day is like a rat race in work and you think, yeah, this is really important to me, yeah, my career, yeah, my job, yeah. And actually I, I ended up putting things about my partner and about my family and, and sometimes you need that being brought back down to earth. Actually, that's what's important. Not that email being sent, that lesson being planned, but this is what's important.

W: Mine's on my wall in my classroom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

C: And what was really nice about that is that the woman running it then asked us to talk about our vision board, so you held it up, didn't you? You said this is what it represents to us, and this is how we see ourselves, and this is what we want. I think we all spoke about what we wanted for the future. 

Mm, mm, mm. 

E: Something like that. But, but that's also how this, this group then becomes everyone's and not just the person organizing it because that's quite a exposing thing to do to talk about, like, this is what I've put on my vision board. This is what I want for my future. I mean, how many people do you say that to ever? So we definitely build a lot of trust in those sessions. I hope we were honest at least in what we say. Yeah. 

K: And what about the sort of discussions you had, what topics have you covered? I know you said last week you talked about sex and gender, but what else?

E: We did aesthetics, didn't we?

W: Porn industry? 

Porn industry. 

Sex industry. Sex industry. AI. 

E: Is sex work, work? Work. 

C: Is sex work Sex work or sexual exploitation? 

E: That's it, sorry. There's a reason you corrected it. Lip fillers and aesthetics and, well your first one was on matriarchal societies. Yeah, could we live in a, in a society where there's polyamorous, polyamorous, freedom.

K: Does it all stay in the workplace or do you, do you get out of the workplace? 

T: Oh that's our, that's our next. So I really like organising things

W: You're amazing at it. 

T: So we've started, so next weekend there's a group of us going to a house in Suffolk that we've rented for, we go on Friday after work, and we're there till Sunday morning.

And it's just time out for all of us, everyone can sit in the hot tub or go and read a book. 

C: I have got activities planned. 

T: So we're going away for this weekend in Suffolk, and then we've also booked Christmas market in Brussels for a weekend at the end of November and we're currently and I've collated the information because we're going to do a a meal in London with a show.

K: Wow, amazing. 

T: And there's no pressure on anybody I just put the message out and everybody says yes or I can't make that.

[And yeah, it's all really inclusive.] 

C: And I, I'm assuming that if people can't make a particular meeting, it's not, I keep calling it a meeting. It's not a meeting. It's not. Sorry. It's because I'm in work. I keep thinking things that we do after work is a meeting, but it's not. I've said this before. I apologize. It's like, if some, if some women can't make the session, it's like, it's not a big deal. They'll come to the next one. Although I do, I do want commitment though. 

E: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

C: Is that I want it to be part of your life, part of your work life, that this group is here, it's yours, but we've also got to commit to it.

It's not something like, actually, ‘I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna bother, I've got all of this stuff to do’. Because we've always got stuff to do, haven't we? 

W: You’ve got to make time, haven't you? 

E: I like, not just, aside from the socials, I mean, they are lovely, but, obviously, the crux of it is the talking and it's the discussions. I feel quite smug that I come here and not everyone can. As in, you know, we have a lot of men who might hear us. We don't discuss topics to them, obviously. But we have, you know, men say, ‘Oh, what is this, what is this group that you've got?’ And we say, ‘Yeah, it's a women's group’. And I feel quite, I feel quite smug that it belongs to us. And it's not open to anyone. 

K: How has that navigated? Because some people, I mean, within a workplace, how have you managed to set up a women's group without causing ripples, or have you caused them? 

C: Well, we've caused a few ripples. 

T: Yeah, with men we have. 

W:  They can make their own group… (Yeah)

F: They can make their own, can’t they? There’s nothing stopping them 

A: No, they can have a group if someone, if they've got an equivalent of you

E: Off they go! 

W: I'd love to listen in though. 

K: You know, you're on the work premises, presumably, what did you do? How did you? 

C: Yeah, so, so what I did was, when I came back from the, from FiLiA 2022, I was like, I need to share about matriarchal societies, I'm going to start this. So I asked if I could have a women's group, and then there was an issue about it being called a women's group, because it's not inclusive. So, uh, I was told that I can send out a whole staff email. Um, but I can't use the word woman.

How do I construct an email without using the word woman? So what I did was, very cleverly, was the very first sentence was, I went to a feminist conference. 

(Laughter)

I went to a feminist conference and I went to a session on matriarchal societies and I'd love to talk to you about. And if you're interested, please respond. Lo and behold, it was only women that responded, and I think you were one of the first. 

And, and then I thought, you know, what am I, what am I going to do if a male responds? I didn't get a male response. That started off from that. It's then, it's then, because of, obviously, the women in the group, I just send one email, emails out to women in the group called Women's Group, and we have our sessions on Wednesday, we call it Women's Wednesday. 

And it's become such a fabric of the school now that this Women's Group is also advertised to all staff, to the whole staff, on a few occasions, especially to new staff, saying that -

K: Through official channels? 

C: Through official channels, exactly, that there is a Women's Group if you would like to join. 

K: Tell me something about International Women's Day. What did you do for International Women's Day? 

C: Okay, so what we did was, is I asked people in the school to nominate a woman, an everyday woman in their lives that has had an impact on them. And I didn't want people to necessarily nominate, you know, someone that's done, that's a celebrity or whatever. I wanted just a normal, everyday woman. And so we had some amazing nominations. We had people, therefore, in assembly standing up, telling the kids, there's a photo of the woman behind them, this is my friend, this is my mom, this is my grandma, etc.

And then just spoke to the students about what this woman has done and what impact they've had on them. And that worked so well. 

And then the activity, the next day, the activity for the students was then to think about, they were to think about a woman that's had an impact on them. And some of them chose some women staff members, and then you sent those messages to those women because they filled out a bit of a slip, uh, on a slip of paper. Have I missed anything out on that? 

E: No, I think that was it. But we had both men and women nominating women on the day and talking in assembly, which was nice. 

X – how Inclusive of you. 

E: Yeah, very. And lots of women that were nominated were staff members as well, which was nice. It's interesting for the kids to see.

K: How do you think that feels as a staff member, to sort of feel that publicly? 

T: Yeah, a male member of staff nominated me. It was, it was a surprise, although I had quite interesting discussions with him about politics. He nominated me because of the work I used to do before I worked here, because I was part of the Sure Start program with Tony Blair. So we have lots of talks about that. It was…The, the head, the Head said, you need to go into assembly. But I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable going into assembly to listen to it. You said it as well, I think, didn't you? 

C: Mm-Hmm, I understood why you didn't, 

T: and I just said the picture on the screen is fine. And he explained the work I did and the difference that that program made, but I didn't feel comfortable standing in the hall with all the children…because I don't have…The role I have here is, is very different, so I don't necessarily have that contact with students. 

K: Do you think it helped, you know, people think differently about women in their lives, you know, other people that work here, that are here?

F: Yeah, definitely. The students were really, um, happy with the assembly. They said it's one of the best assemblies that we've had in a very long time. And they were just shocked. The staff members that stood up, they were surprised that we're one, they said a lot of you haven't actually mentioned your, like, mum. It was other people that we all spoke about, and the feedback I got from a lot of the students was definitely one of the best assemblies we've ever done, yeah, done in a very long time. 

C: It was actually really emotional because some of the, some of the, what was, what was said about the women. Actually made a lot of stuff around the assembly. they were, they were crying because what was said was so heartfelt and genuine. And before the assembly, I made clear about why we have International Women's Day and that really, we shouldn't be, you know, just concentrating on women for one day of the year. This is, this is what women do every single day because we're remarkable.

We do everything and we keep everything together. We manage everything, just to have an appreciation. Because I just think, I just think we're like glue, basically. We just glue everything together, don't we? We glue it and, yeah. 

K: I mean, just on that, are there any changes, without, I mean, you know, without going into too much personal detail, but do you feel that this group has changed you or the way that you live your life? You've talked about the journals and things like that, but do you feel like there's been a definite change? 

W: Yeah, there has for me. I have major trust issues. I hated women. Women throughout my life, honestly, have hurt me. They’ve done nothing but hurt me, but this has healed me. 

[Oh, that's nice./That's really nice./It's really nice./Aww./Aww]

W: Sorry. 

K: It's alright, it's alright. It's very powerful to, you know, it's such a lovely thing for you to say and for you to feel you can say and I think everyone in the room is very moved by that and the power of, you know, the power of women coming together and what you can all do for each other. What we can all do for each other. Sorry I wasn't…I didn't mean to put anybody on the spot. But I mean, are there, you know, are there other things that people feel they can do differently or do differently? 

A: I don't know, for me, I think women are fantastic, you know, I think we're brilliant relationship builders, I think we're loyal to a fault sometimes, not good for us, but, but for me this group has changed in, and again, it goes back to a previous question where I knew most people, because I'm one of the annoying people [at the school?], but only with most a nod, a smile, that kind of thing, you know their name, but you don't know them, you know, this is how I got to know people.

I was and still am going through a really difficult time. And a couple of the people here have been unbelievable. I now consider them – it’s your fault [laughter] I now consider them friends because they have gone above and beyond, outside of the workplace, contacted me and said, I hope everything's ok, blah blah blah.

For me, although, you know, I've, I joined this because I love, you know, speaking to people, especially groups, you know, women, and it sounded fantastic. It's grown my friends circle as far as I'm concerned. I feel like I've got friends, not just work colleagues, and it means a lot. 

K: It sounds like there is sort of real support networks being built here that kind of extend beyond the meetings. It's not all, you know, booby cups. It's really sort of, you know, real impact stuff as well. 

[Don't cry.]

K: What about outlook and ambitions in life? You know, has it made you think, you know, Oh, maybe I'll try that. I don't even mean necessarily a big career change, but just trying something that you haven't tried before. 

A: I think definitely this website. I want to visit this website. I want to know more about that. I'm definitely interested in, you know, learning more about that. Because I wasn't around for the first session of the matriarchal, so I would really want to know more about that. 

C: And you'd like to go to FiLiA Conference, maybe? 

A: I would so like to go to FiLiA Conference, definitely. So it's that side, you know, it's like outside of career promotion, all that kind of thing. It's building my knowledge and finding more out about it, I think. 

C: I mean, what I've found really helpful is, there's some women sitting here now that have posted videos and articles to each other that I wouldn't have. And you did that when we did the, the beauty -

[Oh yeah] 

C: Beauty standards, you sent some videos. And some of the videos were very long. Like I never get my information from YouTube, ever. And I'm like, people sit and watch YouTube? [Laughter.] Let me make my way through 40 minutes of this while we're talking. But, it was okay.

I did it. [Laughter]

E: I didn't expect you to. It wasn't an assignment. [Laughter].

W: Some of the videos were really good though. [Yeah.] Like when we were looking at the sex industry. [Yeah.] The sex dolls. That was fascinating. I watched a programme the other day off the back of that actually. I made my husband watch it as well. [Did you?]

Yeah. It was really fascinating. And I wanted to find that one, the original one, and I couldn't remember the name of it, to watch.

C: As far as, I dunno if others are concerned, but as far as I'm concerned, I feel like I'm learning a lot as I go along. [Mm-Hmm.] I mean, I suppose a lot of the stuff that I came to the group with was from FiLiA, was kind of my own personal opinions on what I read, but what I've noticed is because we're obviously in a group and we all have these varying opinions on where we get our information from, I've quite liked reading what people have recommended or watching what they've recommended.

K: Sounds really, sounds really wonderful and I think you're right about, you know, in lives, in women's lives, they're so busy. The glue of keeping everything else together, aren't they? That often we don't make space for ourselves, actually. But, actually, having a group where you can come together and relax and unwind, but challenge each other as well.

I don't know, it feels like it's given you a lot of strength to go back out there into what you have to do, but also with a stronger sense of who you are and what you want from life, which just feels incredibly empowering to me, just listening to you. 

W: I'm very proud of it. I, you know, ‘I'm part of a women's group. I'm going to women's group tonight’. ‘I'm doing this’, you know, I speak to my daughters and everyone like, ‘I've got a women's group’.

K: Yeah, do you talk to people outside the group? [Absolutely/Yeah/Yeah]

L: And it's nice, as well, to actually do something for yourself rather than going home, doing the dinner, making sure this, that, and the other's done. Whereas like, it's just a group and it's just so enjoyable. 

W: It's our time. 

L: Yeah, it's my time. I enjoy doing it, other than – [Yeah.]

T: I mean, I've got two daughters and I always go home and we discuss what we've discussed here and things like that. They're quite jealous because I say, ‘you can't come’. [Yeah. They can’t belong to it.] It's exclusive to the establishment. [Laughter]

K: Do you think they would be tempted, or do you think they would like to go and try and set it up themselves? 

T: Absolutely, yes. 

K: I mean that's great isn't it, if we're getting our daughters and our sisters to do that, that would be brilliant. 

F: So I was just going to say that coming to this group and listening to what everyone has had to say has actually empowered me to join a group on Facebook. We're going to be talking about women’s health next session. I am struggling with a prolapse, well, not struggling, actually, I'm dealing with a prolapse at the moment. I'm also perimenopausal, but coming to this group has actually made me join a couple of groups on Facebook. 

I've shared my story and based - I'm now helping so many women. I think I've got about three and a half thousand women that I'm supporting at the moment, have reached out to me because I was told at the age of 38, I've been battling with my prolapse, and in early February, I was told, when I went and told Tracy, to have an operation, to have a hysterectomy, to have basically everything lifted up and up (from a male doctor). And I was like hell no, I'm not doing this.

I have investigated, I have researched, I am doing Reformer Pilates. I was at Aerial Yoga yesterday. I am seeing a doctor on the 31st of July and, fingers crossed. I saw my physiotherapist a couple of weeks ago, she's so impressed with my results. So I have gone to Facebook, shared my story and I'm helping so many women out there, at the moment. All, worldwide, all across the world. 

[That’s amazing].

Women that have been told to have a hysterectomy. Women that have gone through the procedure didn't know the information that I know. And like, they're just really happy that I'm sharing my knowledge. So this group has empowered me to go and do that. [Applause]

K: Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. 

[Pause. Laughter.]

C: One of us made a comment before about that we don't really talk about topics outside of the group. I mean, for me, that's not true. We do, we do kind of talk during our lunch breaks - what the topic's going to be about. And sometimes you'll get, kind of, people around thinking, oh, that's an interesting topic.

So we've had that, but we don't mention who says what, we don't mention necessarily, you know, people's names, etc. But they do hear, it does ripple out into the school, and that everyone's aware that there is - and I know some people would like to join and they can't join because they've got childcare commitments, etc. But - and some men overhear some of the topics. So I just wanted to say that it has trickled down, and there is, it is well known that, in this school, there is a women's group that's very successful and talks about really interesting stuff. 

K: Do you think that that helps in the sense of challenging or helping to challenge general sexism and misogyny that might - Do you think that there is, there is a positivity of feminism with women in, in the place? 

W: I think there is. I think there's, we've got a female leadership and you really feel that across the school. I feel that we're very much, not female top-heavy, but it's completely different to when I started here, like I said, 20 years ago, it was very male orientated and I've definitely seen -

A: But it is female heavy, isn't it, the leadership team? 

W: Yeah. And it's nice. 

T: Which is really unusual. It's great. [Yeah.] It is great. 

W: It is great. 

T: I mean, I love it. Being part of that. [Mmmm.] I mean, we've just had a new member of staff start, a female. We're led by a female. There's more females than men. And I think it, for me personally, I think it makes a difference too.

W: Absolutely does. 

T: Yeah. Really strong women. 

C: Yeah, I mean, I also think it does make, when we have, like say, I can't remember, just, just finishing the topic, the discussion that we had on sex work or sexual exploitation, and having that discussion in the staff room, oh, this is the next topic, it does make, it does make me feel confident when there are other people around for me to say, actually, this is my view on that, you know. I'm not going to hold back, this is it, and, and, actually, there's that no apologies, I'm not apologising for my view. And this is it. This has definitely allowed me - I was there anyway, sort of - but I feel like it's allowed us to say –

[The group's got your back]. 

C: The group's got my back. I'm allowed to have this view, and that's, and it's a valid view. 

K: Alright, brilliant. Amazing. I mean, what, I'd love to talk to you all day, but bearing in mind you, you are the glue in so many people's lives, I mean, you've got other things to get on with. I think it would be really useful to just think about whether it would be possible to replicate this in other places, some of the stuff that you've talked about. I mean, do you think other people could do it? Could it be adjusted to work for other women in other workplaces?

T: I think so. 

E: Definitely. If you have somewhere to meet -

W: Just as long as your minds meet, that's the only space you need. 

C: You do need an organizer though, don't you? 

[Oh yeah, yeah.]

K: Like somebody to kind of-

C: Yeah, you need someone -

K: Like say I'll email everybody, I'll set the dates, that sort of thing -

C: Yeah. You do. You need that.

K:  But they don't have to be the, you know- 

C: No, because, because this is what's happened.

W: Organiser, not leader. 

[Yeah. ]

C: This is, this is from one of the questions that you mentioned earlier: ‘Has it developed in ways that I didn't realise?’ That is one of the ways. I thought I was, it was going to be a chore, actually. But it wasn't, because it started off pretty difficult, where I thought, right, I've got to get these women committed. I've got to hook them. What's going to hook them? I don't know, matriarchal societies or whatever. 

K: Lemon cheese cake. [Laughter]. 

C: Yeah. So once I got the hook in, and then, and then people, women started talking to other women in the workplace. Oh, we've got this women's group. So then, so it was building up and then it kind of grew and then it became quite organic. So then now it's just like, all I do is the organizing and, and we discuss what we're going to do. You know, we talk about what we're going to discuss. 

E: But I think as well, it does need from the members that commitment. It doesn't, it sort of loses its value if you just turn up every so often because you can't then build that rapport and then relationships with the women.

I think, you know, that we are sitting here, I feel like we've been the consistent every, every time we have a session, we're here. I know it's difficult because sometimes you just can't get out of things, but it does need that commitment for it to fully work, I think. And to spread the – 

[Definitely] 

C: And one of the things that I do do is, apart from send emails - and I know not everyone can and has time to read their emails - I do also go and speak individually to women like, ‘Oh, are you up for –‘ because some women don't check their emails. [Yeah.] Or I might say to you can you-

E: Can you go and tell this person, 

C: you know, to remind them. So there's a lot of that going on as well, you know, kind of to make sure that that happens. 

W: It's like a little check in with each other as well.

[Yeah.]

C: And also, I found it obviously easier because 75 percent of staff in this workplace are women. But I don't know if it'd be that easy in another kind of workplace that might be male-dominated. Because I've got, I know someone that works in a very male-dominated industry and a woman in that industry, in that company, set up a women's group and they literally had one, I think one meeting, that was it. They hadn't heard back since. That, that would be, that would be tricky and I'd say, actually, that would be even more necessary to have a women's group in such a, in such a place. 

K: So what, what, have you got any thoughts about how they might navigate their way around a different workplace? 

C: It's a different workplace. I mean, I mean, it'd have, it'd have to be exactly more or less what I was doing, which is going around, talking to women, saying this is what we're going to have. And it just has to be consistent and I think in that workplace it wasn't a consistent message time and time again. You know, through any means of communication.

E: In a situation like that, I mean, we, obviously, our meeting point is in the workplace, but maybe for a situation like that, they, their meeting point could be out of the workplace if it is male-dominated. So it starts in a -

W: A coffee shop or something. 

E: Yeah, like a coffee shop or someone's house if they feel comfortable so that they don't feel this is a male dominated space. Yeah. So maybe that could be an idea, yeah. 

K: And have you encountered, I mean we talked a little bit about this earlier, but have you encountered any difficulties or resistance? I mean, and what, is there anything that you did to reassure people or get over any problems or has it been pretty straightforward? 

W: It's been pretty straightforward.

E: Some people are nervous, aren't they, on their first session and like to listen at first, but then you do find that on their second session, or at least the third, they talk, and I think everyone in the group is really good at allowing everyone to speak, or we should be allowing everyone to speak, so that they can feel that their voice is important in here too.

C: Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the challenges that I think that we have is that there are, there are women in the group that say that they're quite reserved. We are in a situation sometimes where they want to speak but it's like we've got some strong women that aren't - 

W: I love that because they come in halfway through and flip it back. There's one person I'm thinking of sits there and then flip it and I love that. 

C: But we need to try and think of a way of actually how do we get the women that aren't struggling or, you know, they want to speak but there's a little bit of a barrier. Do you see? And that's one of the challenges that I think that we have.

K: And you were saying there's some women that would like to come but they've got childcare. 

C: They’ve got childcare

K: There's no easy answer to that is there? But that's obviously a barrier for those women. 

[Yeah]

K: And what would you say to women who, you know, could come but haven't got, say haven't got time? 

W: Find time. 

E: Find time. 

W: Get somebody else.

F: There's always time. 

W: Offload on someone else. There's always time. Barter. You watch mine, I'll watch yours. You do this for me and I'll do that for you.

T: Because we do, I mean, we start like quarter past three, don't we? And some have to go at four, and some have to go at half four, but it's, it's fine. 

[Yeah]

W: There's no awkwardness is there?

T: No, they just quietly -

W: Slip in, slip out. 

T: Yeah. And it's that, I feel that we're, we're that open that it's not a big deal as long as they come and they can sit for ten minutes, they can sit for twenty minutes. 

E: I mean, we've even had one of the women in the group bring their son to the meal after. 

[Oh yeah]

L: I remember that.

E:  We've gone for dinner after the group and one of the women brought their son along, which was lovely. 

But I think in that, what you were saying about how do we sort of help that problem where women who are quieter won't speak. I think we do a good job of someone will pick up on it and someone will say, ‘I think you were trying to speak’. Yeah, just to give them confidence that we can, we can see that you're trying to speak and we're going to shut everyone else up for a minute just to allow you to. 

K: Because you don't want it to be like a formal meeting, but then you have no structure and you're nervous, it can be quite hard, can’t it to wade in

W: Especially in a big group as well. 

[Yeah.]

K: And it sounds like it's getting bigger. 

E: It is. I think that last one was one of our biggest meetings. 20, wasn't it? In the last one. 

K: I mean, have you thought about the dangers of being too big? Do you think, you know, you could risk the connections that you're making?

How would you, how would you manage to keep it going if you get too big? 

W: I don't think it would get, I don't think it would outgrow itself. I think you'd have a natural drop off, people moving on in jobs, positions. 

T: Yeah, because we've got some leaving this summer, so that's a natural. 

W: So I think you've got natural fallout, natural joining.

T: And then maybe some new ones, new staff that are arriving, may well come. 

E: I mean, is it a problem if it gets massive? Is it a problem if there's 40 women? 

T: I think you'd lose some of the - 

W: Intimacy of the conversation. 

T: Yeah, and obviously it's allowing everybody to speak. 

E: But then it would need a system, wouldn't it? It would, I guess it's less natural. 

T: It’s more formal then. It's not natural. And then I think with us, friendships have been made. I think with 40 I just, I think then you’ll maybe get your breakaway groups. 

W: Then it is a meeting

E: Yeah, I'm just thinking it might be like an enemy of your own progress though, because this is going to get bigger and more people are going to want to join us.

W: But yeah. I think you've got, you've got your hardcore that will be here no matter what. 

[Yeah, us. Hardcore, yeah us.] [Laughter]

W: I think you've got your people that will be able to make a couple of sessions. So I don't think those numbers [Yeah] potentially [Yeah] would get over overwhelming. [Yeah.] 

T: And some, I mean, I was just thinking, so the last one, someone came for the first time, 

C: A couple of people did.

T: Yeah, couple of, and I know you spoke to one and she was like, ‘Hmm’. 

C: Yeah. Not sure if it's - 

T: Not sure if it's her thing. 

C: Yeah. 

T: We'll see. 

E: Yeah. 

T: But it's, it's, [Yeah] she came and she listened. 

C: And I mean, to be honest with you, to come to that topic - [I know] we put that topic off- 

E: - for two years

C: We put that topic off for two years.

E: Let's do it 

W: Far too long to put it off

T: I think that's what we do though. And I think we, we can't give women a false impression of what this group is. Some of them are really meaty topics. [Yeah.] And it becomes, not brutal -

W: You can always skip that topic as well, if it's one you're not going to be comfortable with. You just don't come to that session.

[Yeah.]

T: Because it's as interesting just listening sometimes. If you don't feel you want to participate or you particularly have a strong opinion, you can just sit back and observe. 

C: Because that's one of the things that I thought was really, sometimes I sit back and just listen, especially if we're talking about intergenerational conversations, because I learn so much from the younger – [Laughter] I really do, I can't tell you, and I know I'm looking at you now, but I really do learn so much. Uh, and you, and I thought as an older woman that I, I know all of this, surely I don't, but I really have forgotten what it's like to be young and, and also to be young at a different time. So obviously this generation is so different to what I've experienced.

And also vice versa, sometimes I hear conversations of what it's, you know, what it's like for women to go through, you know, an older stage in their life and for younger women to listen. So the one that we've got next on women's health, and you're talking about perimenopausal and we're going to talk, women talking about the menopause. You know, you've got that to look forward to. [Yeah.] [Laughter] 

I can honestly say. I can honestly say, I don't know if you agree with me. If, if I had this when I was in my 20s. [Yeah.] You know, actually it's not bad getting old, is it? [Yeah] In fact there's a freedom getting older. 

[It’s a privilege/To get older/Not given to many]

C: You what?

T: It’s a privilege not given to many. [Yeah]

C: But also like, as I've got older, I'm like, I, I just couldn’t give a shit less and I'm like, I wish I knew this would happen, like when I was in my twenties and thirties, that I cared too much and now I feel like I have this freedom. Right? That, and, I think it's just good that you get to see, if you're younger, that actually there is definite, much brighter light at the end of the tunnel. Because this bit, being young is difficult. 

T: And there's, there's lots of like quotes that go around, and one that I really like, and, and they interview like 90 year olds. I love all those interviews where a 90 year old or a 100 year old is interviewed, and they go, you know, what, what would you advise? And they just say, Stop worrying. 

E: Yeah. Don't care what people think.

T: It's never as bad as you think it is. [Yeah]

W: It's not a dress rehearsal.[Yeah]

T: Enjoy your life. [Yeah] Buy the cake, buy the dress. [Yeah]

W: Wear the swimming costume. [Yeah. Exactly] Wear the bikini. [Exactly. Yeah]

T: But every old person, they say that. And you know, and you think back and you think, yeah, the things I used to worry about. 

K: It sounds like a good time to say when are you all coming to FiLiA then? That's a nice weekend away with loads of women, all sorts, women from all over the world. 

W: When it's organised for us and put on the table. [Laughter] 

It's women engaging about all sorts of things. But it's a really, it's a really good weekend. And I think FiLiA would really benefit from having you all there as well. So I really hope you make it.

Is there anything anybody wants to say before we sort of sign off? Because I'll probably kept you long enough 

[Just Thank you!] [Thank you]

Thank you. so much. It's been such a really fascinating listen and I feel enriched just listening to you talk about it. I just wish I was a member. 

[Ahhhhhh!] 

But good luck with what, you know, with what you do with it next. And I know I'll be kept posted about everything. [You will] But yeah, thanks so much for giving me your time. 

[Thank you. Thank you.] [Applause]